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Subject: Sequence of events rss

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Jim Cote
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Started my first game last night. It's been stated that, after playing, many of my rules questions will simply dissolve. That was not the case at all. Every question I had upon reading the rules (twice) was not resolved, and I have more. Here's a single situation that covers many of my questions, most of which revolve around timing:

We are playing Bagradas Plains with the extra cavalry. The second activation of turn 1 put an entire line of LG right up against my 19 EL's. The VE's are also here from the previous activation. It is very cramped.

1) May the units moving by Line Command fire (individually?) as they move? It's vaguely implied that they can (and trigger immediate return fire; or the defender could wait and use entry fire after ALL movement).

2) The sequence of Shock Combat is explicitly left up to the players to resolve. [Huge slap on the wrist to the designers for this.] How do some of you handle this? I find "left-to-right order" or even "attacker decides" to be unsatisfying.

3) The rules use the word "immediately" quite often in contradiction to other sections that detail sequence of events. 8.33 through 8.37 are supposed to be executed in order for all combat. This is quite explicit. Later descriptions of Rampage, for example, suggest that this explicit sequence is not followed. Which way is it?

4) The charge step on shock combat (8.33) has the possibility of causing chain reactions, and not just because of Rampage. Even if you do all Rampages first, you might end up with more Rampages after Routs or even Collapse. We played that all EL's Rampage, then units Rout (resolving new Rampages immediately), then do all Collapse (resolving new Rampages immediately, then Routs, resolving new Rampages immediately again), etc. There's absolutely no mention of the resolution order for this complex sequence of chain reactions, and the order you use has a HUGE affect on the results. How do some of you handle this? I watched Joel's Vassal vlog/mp3 sessions. He appeared to do things differently from some of the rules.

5) Units that Rout/Advance/Orderly Withdraw can cause further chain reactions. How do some of you handle this?

Some of my questions are subjective, but I'm really hoping for objective answers, and not just "this is how WE play it". I'd bet that no two people in the entire world (except those who play together) play this game the same way, given the ridiculously ambiguous nature of the language. I'd appreciate rules quotes of references to back up any replies, but I am skeptical that most of what I have asked can be definitively answered by the rules without cherry picking.


PS: The balancing rules for Bagradas suggest adding the Roman Alae Cavalry, but don't actually say which units those are. Is it supposed to be all the RC AS/III and RC AS/V counters?
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Merric Blackman
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My play of the game has...

...you move and fire each unit individually. (once you start moving another unit, you can't fire the previous unit).

...left to right combat. Note that in fact it's all simultaneous, so you assign how shock combat is split for all units before resolving, then the TQ checks are all done, then all the actual Shock for those units, etc.

...but this is a Berg game, and rules are indifferently (that's kindly put, btw) written. Rampage does break the rules. I tend to resolve the damage dealt by all shocks, then do Rampage before anything else.

...thankfully, it doesn't come up that often. I just rampage away.

...resolve the movement of the originally routing units, then of the chain reaction units.

...yes, all the RC AC/III and AS/V counters.

I've played quite a bit of SPQR (and other GBoH games), and the rules continue to frustrate me. I have my own interpretation of them, and Alan Ray (the series rules guru/developer) answers a lot of questions on the CSW forum. I still enjoy the game, but it's in spite of the rules, not because of them.

Cheers,
Merric
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Mike Stack
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Howdy Jim,

There is a definite learning curve to this game in the combat phase. I also asked a ton of questions over on ConsimWorld and the light bulb finally when on for me when I stopped thinking of Shock resolution as one big phase and started resolving each step to completion before moving on to the next step. If you follow this the artificiality of resolving things from left to right doesn't really have a big effect on the shock outcome. Left to Right or Right to Left will most often result in the same net outcome.

I did an extended search in the GBOH forum on CSM for Alan Ray and once I got thru the 400 or so posts from him, which are primarily answers to quoted rules queries, I had a much better grasp of things.

Later, Mike









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Ol Appalachia
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1. See 8.11, not vague.

3. Generally immediately means immediately. Rampage, conduct each as they happen, interrupt normal play and resolve. RE: 9.14 and the Play Note below it. Finish current Rampage even if initiates another, also 9.14. Complete Rampages in order they were initiated.

4. Rampages don't cause combat just hits, no collapse checks. Units that rout do so immediately. per 10.21/10.22.

5. Units that rout for whatever reason do so immediately, per 10.21/10.22. Routing units don't cause further combats so the Combat sequence is not violated.

While I agree the rulebook could be written/organized better, the answers are there if you read carefully.
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Jim Cote
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Ol Appalachia wrote:
1. See 8.11, not vague.

"When given an Individual Order, a missile unit can move, fire, or fire during movement. A Line of Missile units given a Line Command may fire during--or instead of--their movement; however, they may only fire once during that order."

This rule is total garbage. The first 2 sentences say the same thing, making you wonder what the difference is. And the "only fire once" part doesn't say anything about what it applies to.

Quote:
4. Rampages don't cause combat just hits, no collapse checks. Units that rout do so immediately. per 10.21/10.22.

5. Units that rout for whatever reason do so immediately, per 10.21/10.22. Routing units don't cause further combats so the Combat sequence is not violated.

Again, contradicted by other rules, and the particular sequence you follow.

Quote:
...the answers are there if you read carefully.

Completely disagree, since I can counter every rule quote you made with another rule quote. You are making up your own interpretations of how to play just like everyone else.
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Mike Stack
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ekted wrote:
Ol Appalachia wrote:
1. See 8.11, not vague.

"When given an Individual Order, a missile unit can move, fire, or fire during movement. A Line of Missile units given a Line Command may fire during--or instead of--their movement; however, they may only fire once during that order."

This rule is total garbage. The first 2 sentences say the same thing, making you wonder what the difference is. And the "only fire once" part doesn't say anything about what it applies to.


The difference is the first sentence only applies to a unit given a INDIVIDUAL ORDER, the second applies to a unit operating under a LINE COMMAND ORDER.


 
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Jim Cote
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MikeS8i2 wrote:
ekted wrote:
Ol Appalachia wrote:
1. See 8.11, not vague.

"When given an Individual Order, a missile unit can move, fire, or fire during movement. A Line of Missile units given a Line Command may fire during--or instead of--their movement; however, they may only fire once during that order."

This rule is total garbage. The first 2 sentences say the same thing, making you wonder what the difference is. And the "only fire once" part doesn't say anything about what it applies to.


The difference is the first sentence only applies to a unit given a INDIVIDUAL ORDER, the second applies to a unit operating under a LINE COMMAND ORDER.

Come on. Of course that's different. But what applies to IO and LC are no different. You may move and/or fire at any point during movement. It's just stated two different ways.
 
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Mike Stack
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Quote:
Come on. Of course that's different. But what applies to IO and LC are no different. You may move and/or fire at any point during movement. It's just stated two different ways.


Ok point taken.

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Mad Scientist Philip von Doomula
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Thanks for posting this Jim.

My only request with this post is that if people reference ConsimWorld can you please supply a link to the reference. Navigating ConsimWorld really isn't the easiest thing to do.
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Mad Scientist Philip von Doomula
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Jim, I just found this SPQR Sample Game on C3I...

http://www.c3iopscenter.com/documents/SPQR%20Sample%20Game.p...

I haven't read it yet but I bet it will help.
 
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Jim Cote
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Already read that, as well as many other articles on that site.
 
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Ol Appalachia
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ekted wrote:
Ol Appalachia wrote:
1. See 8.11, not vague.

"When given an Individual Order, a missile unit can move, fire, or fire during movement. A Line of Missile units given a Line Command may fire during--or instead of--their movement; however, they may only fire once during that order."

This rule is total garbage. The first 2 sentences say the same thing, making you wonder what the difference is. And the "only fire once" part doesn't say anything about what it applies to.


I guess we've moved on from wondering whether units can fire and move, to complaining about how the rule is written. The difference is LC have an additional restriction, and seeing as the restriction is part of the same sentence, there's no ambiguity here.

Quote:
4. Rampages don't cause combat just hits, no collapse checks. Units that rout do so immediately. per 10.21/10.22.

5. Units that rout for whatever reason do so immediately, per 10.21/10.22. Routing units don't cause further combats so the Combat sequence is not violated.

Quote:
Again, contradicted by other rules, and the particular sequence you follow.


Well then, do share...

Quote:
...the answers are there if you read carefully.

Quote:
Completely disagree, since I can counter every rule quote you made with another rule quote.

Again, please cite which rules contradict...

Quote:
You are making up your own interpretations of how to play just like everyone else.

Not really, I've played with others who've learned on their own, and we played the same way.
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