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Subject: Cover art controversy? rss

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Dave C.
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Just got my copy today! While drooling looking over it in preparation for tomorrow's play, I noticed something about the cover:

In the center of the (excellent) illustration, there are depictions of large flags of the major combatants: USA is there, as is Great Britain, Japan, and even a barely hidden (National Socialist) German flag. That's it.

There's no Soviet flag there. True, there's a little one over on the right, flying over Berlin, but no room at the head table for our Russian allies. I just found that surprising in this day and age, when even the most die-hard America-phile simply must acknowledge the contributions the Soviet Union made to WWII.

Hell, I just double checked my 1987 version and, even though it was made in the height of the Cold War, it still has a big red flag prominently bearing the Hammer and Sickle right in the center alongside the other Allies.

I don't know the reason for it, or why I even noticed it, but I just found it curious.

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George Husted
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Well, for a year and 10 months, the Nazis and the Soviets were allies, carving up eastern Europe between them. The Soviets invaded Poland from the east a few days after the Germans invaded from the West. The Soviets murdered about 20,000 Polish officers and then blamed the Nazis.

After WW 2 was over, and Soviet POWs were forcibly repatriated to the Soviet Union, thousands of them were shot for being traitors immediately after going back to their country...within earshot and sometimes view of the allied troops bringing them back to the Soviets at gunpoint.

I'm not sorry their flag isn't on the cover.
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Chris Strabala
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With a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
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Well, we are talking about the same company that cannot even put Honolulu on the right Hawaiian Island...
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Kaufschtick
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Coldwarrior1984 wrote:
Well, for a year and 10 months, the Nazis and the Soviets were allies, carving up eastern Europe between them. The Soviets invaded Poland from the east a few days after the Germans invaded from the West. The Soviets murdered about 20,000 Polish officers and then blamed the Nazis.

After WW 2 was over, and Soviet POWs were forcibly repatriated to the Soviet Union, thousands of them were shot for being traitors immediately after going back to their country...within earshot and sometimes view of the allied troops bringing them back to the Soviets at gunpoint.

I'm not sorry their flag isn't on the cover.


Agreed. While it's a different day now, back then it was kinda hard to tell the difference between Stalin & Hitler.
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Greece
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If you are still confused let me tell you a difference: Stalin was the one who gave Allies victory, Hitler was the enemy. Still confused? If yes there is a place called library
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George Husted
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Yeah, he just gave us victory. There was no need for Normandy.shake

Declaration on Crimes of Communism
www.webcitation.org/5yfNE22gE

The PRAGUE DECLARATION
www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA...

Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation

http://www.victimsofcommunism.org/

Global Museum on Communism
http://www.globalmuseumoncommunism.org/

The Other Holocaust: Stories From Victims Of Stalin's Terror
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/11/holocaust-stalins-v...
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Greece
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You say so. I say that without Stalin an Axis victory was very close. You can tell otherwise, but be aware that Roosevelt had the same opinion as me (or the contrary to be more presise). And PLEASE don't mention war crimes. You do know American history, don't you?
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George Husted
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Oh sure, I know US history...

There was that EU Declaration on the US...mmm...and then there was that UN Declaration that says that the United States...ummm...yeah, sure, I see where you are going with that.whistle
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Dave C.
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Well, I had hoped this would get a bit lively! Trust me, I'm no apologist for Mr. Stalin and his methods, I'm just saying that even with tyranical despotish murderous leadership, the Soviet Armed forces contributed significantly to the destruction of the Nazi armed forces. The scale of casualties on those Eastern Front battlefields is astounding.

My dad landed at Normandy. I've been there twice at my own expense to pay my respects at Commemorations at the American cemetary there. I've also paid my respects at Hurtgen, Bastogne and Dachau. The American contribution to WWII should not be minimized, but how much more difficult would Normandy (and the other ETO Fronts) have been without Stalingrad, Kursk, etc?

I'm just saying that I think those 20-plus million Soviet people who died in those efforts should at least get a seat at the table.
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Greece
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Coldwarrior1984 if I put the memorials of Hiroshima, Nagashaki and Dresden victims you would say that there is no difference between Nazis and Americans? No? Why?
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George Husted
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Your moral equivalency fails on the face of it. There are no memorials at Hiroshima, Nagashaki and Dresden indicting American conduct precisely because they are not morally equivalent as you suggest.
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Greece
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Bombs dropped from heaven
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Dave C.
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Corto Maltese wrote:
Coldwarrior1984 if I put the memorials of Hiroshima, Nagashaki and Dresden victims you would say that there is no difference between Nazis and Americans? No? Why?


All nations act in their own national interest. There is no question about this. That said, the Americans did not start World War Two. In protest to the actions of the Fascist Axis powers, we certainly denied our resources to Japan and provided resources to England AND the USSR. Still the vast majority of Americans did NOT want to be involved in that war. That changed when it landed on our back doorstep in December 1941.

In the island hopping campaign to reach Japan to defeat it (because they attacked our Naval base) Americans suffered enormous casualties. After years of fighting and horrific island assaults, the last two islands we assaulted before reaching the Japanese mainland were Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

Americans suffered nearly 25,000 casualties on Iwo Jima
Americans suffered nearly 50,000 casualties on Okinawa
Projected American casualties for an invasion of the japanese mainland ran into the hundreds of thousands. The main reason for atomic bombs being dropped on Japan were to put an end to staggering losses of life incurred by all parties in this war, but especially American lives.

All nations act in their own national interest. There is no question about this.

It was believed that facing such weapons the Japanese would finally submit. As it was, it still took a Soviet invasion force to convince them, but that was not known to American planners at the time the decision to bomb was made.

In regards to Dresden and strategic bombing: In 1940, Britain stood virtually alone in the face of Nazi aggression, with little resources to fight back at this enemy beyond their air power. The Nazis began bombing them as a prelude to invasion, so they fought back with all they could, their air power. Luckily for them it worked, and strategic bombing grew out of this experience. If you want to find the roots of the Dresden bombing, do some research on what the Nazis did to Coventry.

"War is Hell" - American General Wm. T. Sherman.

Even the lowliest creature on earth will do anything to survive once it is attacked. Why do we expect any less of ourselves?

And at this point, I think it's time to request the mods to move this thread to the RSP section.
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Reinhard Mueller
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Coldwarrior1984 wrote:
Well, for a year and 10 months, the Nazis and the Soviets were allies, carving up eastern Europe between them. The Soviets invaded Poland from the east a few days after the Germans invaded from the West. The Soviets murdered about 20,000 Polish officers and then blamed the Nazis.

After WW 2 was over, and Soviet POWs were forcibly repatriated to the Soviet Union, thousands of them were shot for being traitors immediately after going back to their country...within earshot and sometimes view of the allied troops bringing them back to the Soviets at gunpoint.

I'm not sorry their flag isn't on the cover.

Who is interested in discussing morale issues? If they participated in the war I expect their flag to be on the cover. Everything else is distortion of history.
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George Husted
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So you would like to see the swastika on the box cover?

I look at the hammer and sickle as worse than the swastika. Stalin was certainly a bigger murderer than Hitler. Yet, there are laws in many European nations against the swastika being on a game box...yet the hammer and sickle get a free pass. Why?

The Soviets were brutal aggressors and partners with the Nazis in the early part of the war, taking over Latvia, Estonia, and invading Poland. They committed mass murder on Poles and Ukrainians, and they invaded Finland (thank you Mr. Kaufschtick), Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertza region. Their actions did as much to start WW 2 as the Nazi actions...they acted in concert TOGETHER.

So, if there is no swastika allowed, why should the hammer and sickle be allowed?
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Kaufschtick
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There is a big difference between Stalin, and the Russian people.

If Stalin hadn't been busy murdering his own army officers before the war, maybe the Russians wouldn't have suffered so many terrible casualties, most especially civilian casualties, as they did during the war.

Stalin was a murderer, plain and simple. The Russian people were his victim, and they suffered because of him.

The Russian people were heros during the war, victimized by both Hitler, and their very own leader Stalin. That is the plain fact of the matter, and a horrible shame.

Coldwarrior1984 wrote:

The Soviets were brutal aggressors and partners with the Nazis in the early part of the war, taking over Latvia, Estonia, and invading Poland. They committed mass murder on Poles and Ukrainians, and they invaded Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertza region.


Don't forget Finland.
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Dave C.
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Coldwarrior1984 wrote:

So, if there is no swastika allowed, why should the hammer and sickle be allowed?


Because the history (and the new laws) are written by the victors.
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Dave C.
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Old Curmudgeon wrote:
There is a big difference between Stalin, and the Russian people.


The Russian people were heros during the war, victimized by both Hitler, and their very own leader Stalin. That is the plain fact of the matter, and a horrible shame.



This is what I was trying to convey. When I was a teenager in the 1980's and those older than me were protecting my free scrawny butt from all manner of global threats (I'm looking at you Coldwarrior and THANKING YOU), I basically learned about WWII from my dad (a WWII Army Veteran), and American war movies on TV. I thought because I watched "Patton" every year when it came on TV that I knew the whole story of the ETO. The war was hardly mentioned at all in my public education.

Later, when I was in college I sat in on a History of WWII class that I couldn't enroll in because I wasnt' a History Major. It was there that I learned what really happened in this war. It sparked a lifelong interest in the subject.

Because of the Cold War and our effort to minimize our new Soviet enemy's status in the world, many Americans were taught an incomplete or distorted view of WWII (at least I know I was).

Again, I make no apologies for Stalin and mean no discredit to American and the other Allies sacrifices and struggles, it's just that I thought we had moved beyond minimizing what the Soviet citizenry also did to help destroy the Nazis.
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Kaufschtick
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Look, the Russian people suffered as terribly as they did because of their own leadership, and that is a tragedy to be sure. First, Stalin formally partnered with Hitler, then he went on his own land grab himself. He murdered countless numbers of his own people as well as those of eastern europe.

Now that the cold war is over, let's keep in mind that the Russains played a major role in europe, both in starting the war, and ending it there, and there only. It was a world war though. Where was Russia in the Pacific?

Cooz wrote:
Because of the Cold War and our effort to minimize our new Soviet enemy's status in the world, many Americans were taught an incomplete or distorted view of WWII (at least I know I was).


Whoa, I have a major problem with that statement. I grew up in the 80's too, and I had no trouble at all reading about Stalingrad, Kiev, Smolensk, Kursk, the Battle for Moscow, the battles between the Russains & the Japanese in the late 30s, and on and on. I have to strongly disagree with your statement that many Americans were taught an incomplete, or distorted view of WWII.

Where was Stalin when Germany attacked France, Belgium, Holland and the BEF?! Where was he when the Germans attacked Yugoslavia, Greece & Crete?

I don't recall seeing any reverse lend-lease. I don't remember the Russians coming to the rescue of France & Britain in the spring of 1940. But when Russia got attacked, Stalin had the nerve to demand that the western Allies open a second front in europe to help him! Where was he in 1940?! I'll tell you where Stalin was, he was in bed with Hitler, and that is a cold hard fact.

In today's politics, here in the US, a big deal is made out of politicians who flip-flop, or reverse their stances on issues. Stalin was the biggest fence jumper to have ever existed! He stood by with a signed non agression pact & trade agreement with Germany, while they attacked europe. He didn't even try any economic sanctions. Then when he got attacked, he squeeled like a little pig for help. He should have been hung for his part in allowing the holocaust to engulf europe.

Stalin was no ally, he was a homicidical psychopath and a coward. With Stalin went the Russian people, to their own great misfortune.

So if the flag that many associate with Stalin isn't featured prominently enough on the box of A&A 1941...well, there is a good arguement to be made for it being that way, I'd have to say.

I don't really care one way or the other, I'm just saying that I can see why it would be left off, and I don't have a problem with it being that way.
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Reinhard Mueller
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Old Curmudgeon wrote:

So if the flag that many associate with Stalin isn't featured prominently enough on the box of A&A 1941...well, there is a good arguement to made for it being that way.

I want my wargames to be free of any political statements (and also the game box). And yes, I personally would not mind the swastika on the box. The problem is just that it would attract a lot of brainless people like a pile of sh*t attracts the flies. There are a still a lot of nazis around, but not so many stalinists.
Personally, I can tell the difference between a wargame and propaganda. And also as someone pointed out, the german flag is featured on the box, with the swastika hidden.
What's next? A napoleonic game without any reference to Napoleon, because the publisher believes he was the antichrist?
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Kaufschtick
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etagimbo wrote:

I want my wargames to be free of any political statements (and also the game box).
"War is not an independent phenomenon, but the continuation of politics by different means."
-Karl Von Clausewitz

Good Luck with that then, let us know how that works out for you.
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Jim Patching
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And there was me thinking the controversy was going to be about the fact they'd re-used the cover art from the Anniversary Edition.

Personally I think it's odd they haven't put the Soviet flag on the cover. They're a major player in the game, they should be on the cover. The picture's not a piece of propoganda, it's a visual representation of what the game is about.
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Dave C.
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Cooz wrote:

And at this point, I think it's time to request the mods to move this thread to the RSP section.


and at this point . . .
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Kaufschtick
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panzer-attack wrote:
Personally I think it's odd they haven't put the Soviet flag on the cover. They're a major player in the game, they should be on the cover. The picture's not a piece of propoganda, it's a visual representation of what the game is about.


Instead of the Russain flag, I'd have rather seen this guy's portrait on the box cover. Here's a true Hero of WWII:



Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov

He was born in 1896 in Strelkova, Kaluga Province. In December of 1934, Stalin begins a series of purges of party members who are suspected of disloyalty. By the end of 1938, about one million people are executed. They are known as 'the Great Purge'. At least 9.5 million people are deported, exiled, or imprisoned in work camps. Zuhkov survived Stalins purges.

In October, 1941, he replaced Semyon Timoshenko in command of the central front and directed the defense of Moscow. In 1942 he was made Deputy Commander-in-Chief and sent to the southwestern front to save Stalingrad, capturing the German Sixth Army in 1943. He gave General Vatutin command in the Battle of Kursk. Following the failure of Marshal Voroshilov he lifted the siege of Leningrad in mid-1944.

He led the offensive of 1944 and the final assault on Germany in 1945, capturing Berlin in April and becoming the first commander of the Soviet occupation zone in Germany.

In 1946, Stalin sees Zuhkov as a threat and he has the secret police bug his house. The secret police tries to frame Zuhkov by using torture to get false accusations from his colleagues. Zuhkov is posted to the Odessa Military District, and he's later kept under house arrest.



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Maxim Simonov
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Господа американцы опять варятся в собственном соку.

Греку вот виднее, что и как было в Европе. Правда, быстро его из этой темы выклевали...

...

1. Без помощи Англии и США России пришлось бы гораздо тяжелей. А без помощи СССР союзники до сих пор смотрели бы на Европу со свастикой. Для тех, кто не в курсе - высадка в Нормандии была нужна лишь для дележа территорий в Европе, ход войны был уже сломан, фашистов гнали на Запад и захват Берлина оставался делом времени.

2. Сталин был не большим психопатом, чем Рузвельт или Черчилль. Вся разница в том, что ему досталась разваленная нищая разбитая страна. Ещё немного бы и нас на куски разрезали со всех сторон. Да, методы были жестоки, да было много горя и несправедливости, но возможно благодаря этим методам русские до сих пор живы как нация. Вам этого не понять.

3. Где был Сталин когда захватывали Францию в 1940? Копил силы. Лезть в пекло ради Англии и Франция которые своим бездействием и подстрекательством вырастили Гитлера? Его можно было легко убрать ещё в момент захвата Чехословакии - почему Англия и Франция были против? Зачем давали вырасти Германии?

Естественно СССР заключил пакт о ненападении с Гитлером. Какая страна поступила бы иначе? Этот пакт давал нам выиграть время, раз уж французы и англичане закрывали глаза на дела Гитлера в Европе и ясно было что грядёт большая война за передел мира. Что в нём вообще плохого? Что СССР с Германией раньше не подрались? Извините, если это для вас плохо.

4. Насчёт флага. Знаете как это называется? Переписывание истории. Лет через -дцать вы вообще будете думать, что СССР с Америкой воевал во Второй Мировой.

Впрочем, дело ваше. Хотите - рисуйте, хотите не рисуйте.

Отвечать мне не обязательно. Оставайтесь при свом мнении. Удачи.

P.S. Простой пример на тему как вы любите видеть в России абсолютное зло: Финская война.

Как же, СССР злобно напал на маленькую Финляндию, он не лучше нацисткой Германии.

Несколько фактов: 1) Финны вообще как нация существуют только благодаря России, которая в 19 веке отбила эту территорию у шведов, дала им большие возможности самоуправления и национальное самоосознание. До тех пор даже названия городов были шведские. 2) Ещё за 25 лет до финской войны Финляндия была _частью_ России. Это вот как от вас Техас захочет отделиться а вы потом с ним войну начнёте. 3) Финляндия была потенциальном союзником Гитлера. Сиуация когда один из крупнейших городов страны находится на расстоянии пушечного выстрела от границы с потенциальным противнком в условиях надвигающейся войны - это нормально? 4) Финнов просили отодвинуть границу, предлагали _больше_ земли чем просили. Финны отказались.

Ещё вопросы остались, почему СССР начал финскую войну? И так ли неправ он был?

Если кто не в курсе, англичане с лёгкостью разбомбили французский флот, как только поняли, что он может перейти к Германии. И чем, мать вашу, поступок СССР хуже?..

На этом действительно всё.
 
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