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Subject: Leader captured by neutral rss

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Sean McKenzie
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Duke of Alva gets spanked sieging Tunis, army is eliminated and alva captured...

How does spain get alva back?

IIRC this was ruled on before, I belive spain loses a card to get him back, but no one gets the card that spain loses.

Correct?
 
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Björn “Beorn” Rabenstein
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Assaulting leaders are never captured after failed assaults. See p21 of the rules: "If all attacking land units are eliminated, surviving attacking army leaders are displaced (12.5)."
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Sean McKenzie
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15.3 explicitly states that Army leaders are captured. After the assault the spanish ouside were reduced to 1 unit and so did not outnumber the defenders inside.
 
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Steven
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smckenzie wrote:
15.3 explicitly states that Army leaders are captured. After the assault the spanish ouside were reduced to 1 unit and so did not outnumber the defenders inside.


Based on the OP's example, you are incorrect.

Check out the part that Björn was refering to:

VQ rules, pg 21 wrote:
10. Unsuccessful Assault: If no attacking land units remain, the attacker did not score at least one hit, or any besieged land units remain, the assault is unsuccessful. If the number of besieging land units still exceeds the number of defending land units, the space remains under siege. If not, the attacking force must retreat as described in 15.3. If all attacking land units are eliminated, surviving attacking army leaders are displaced (12.5).


In the OP's example. all of the attacking land units are eliminated, so Duke of Alva is displaced.

The rule section you were citing is this:

VQ rules, pg 21 wrote:
15.3 Breaking a Siege

A siege is broken immediately if the besieging stack no longer contains more land units than are in the fortification (cavalry units are included in these counts). This may occur if part of the besieging force leaves the space as part of a Move action, a successful interception, or a successful avoid battle attempt. It may also occur if the besieging stack takes severe losses during an assault or battle
against a relief force, or due to an Event card play. When the siege
is broken, the stack must retreat to any adjacent space that meets
the following restrictions. This retreat does not cost any CP. If no
such legal space exists, all units in that stack are eliminated; any
army leaders present are captured.


I would say that section 5.1, step 10, takes precedence over the siege being broken. The moment that all attacking units are eliminated during an unsuccessful assault, the surviving leader is displaced.

However, your example poses an interesting situation:

If one Spanish unit had remained and there was one neutral regular left, then 15.3 would kick in, because the Spainish have as many units as the neutral power. The Spainish would then have to retreat and would have no legal space to go! I am not sure if Ed has ruled on this yet, but I assume the attacking leader would actually be displaced if this was a neutral space with no valid retreat, not captured as if a space was controlled by a major power.

This would be an exception to avoid the awkward situation where a leader is captured by no one!
 
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Kristian Thy
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SW_Cygnus wrote:
I would say that section 5.1, step 10, takes precedence over the siege being broken.


Indeed. You can't break a siege when there is no besieging stack anymore ...
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Steven
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Okay I found this post (from HIS, however it sheds light on the whole "neutrals should not capture leaders" situation). This does not apply to the OP's example, but does deal with the situation Sean discussed.

Although this is for Here I Stand (VQ's predecessor), I would say the same "spirit" of the law" is in VQ. Neutral powers should not capture leaders (field battles or failed retreats after assaults), so they would be displaced to the nearest key.
 
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Sean McKenzie
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Thanks.

But making it clear, 15.3 was what applied in my situation.

Spain has 1 unit outside nuetral 1 inside, spain must retreat but can not...captured...but since neutrals can not capture no...

I had Spain expend the card...spain won, so no need for a replay on that one...
 
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Sean McKenzie
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Also, why not simply have spain lose a treasure/card in this situation. I'm not really sure what the issue with that is.
 
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Steven
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smckenzie wrote:
Also, why not simply have spain lose a treasure/card in this situation. I'm not really sure what the issue with that is.


There is no issue, I was just trying to find you an answer! Based on this rare situation, I would follow Ed's similar ruling in HIS, where neutral powers can never capture leaders.

You are more than welcome to do whatever you want.
 
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Sean McKenzie
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Thanks.

I was in fact looking for the official answer.

And so my other remark is directed towards Ed.

Ed?
 
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