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Arkham Horror» Forums » Rules

Subject: Defeating a monster and overwhelming rss

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Frank Otte
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If I defeat a monster by other means than combat (for example using the lightning gun or the flute of the outer gods), do I suffer from the effect "Overwhelming" of the defeated monsters?
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Peter Schott
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no, only in combat
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G B
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Correct. Overwhelming is only in combat.
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Tibs
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Allow me to disagree here. In all other contexts, "defeat" is equivalent to "pass a combat check against." You would not claim Endless monsters, you would trigger pass effects (Riots), and then that would meant that you suffer Overwhelming loss.
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Frank Otte
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The probably equal treatment of "Endless" compared to "Overwhelming" was indeed my reason to ask this question. There is one tiny difference in the rules though, but I don't know, if you can base a rule decision on it. On the last page of the basic rules, it says:

Endless: A monster with this ability cannot be collected as a monster trophy. Instead, each time it is defeated, return it to the cup.

(...)

Overwhelming X: Any investigator that defeats this monster in combat still loses X Stamina. This ability doesn’t apply when the investigator fails his Combat check against the monster.

You notice the difference. Endless states just "defeated", while Overwhelming explicitely says "defeat in combat". You could follow from that, that Endless is considered in any defeat, while Overwhelming is only considered after a defeat in combat.

Furthermore, Overwhelming is conditioned to a fail in combat check. Since you cannot fail your combat check, when you fight a monster by other means, one could say, that Overwhelming cannot be applied, when a monster is defeated without combat.

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Joe Pilkus
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The way that I've played this one ~ if, when using the "Flute" you would not suffer the penalties associated with Nightmarish or Overwhelming as that's a function of a combat check, while you must subscribe to following the rules with regard to Endless...for instance.
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Jeff Hoffman
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The Flute is used before making a Combat Check (but after a Horror Check) so it is used during combat.

However, I do agree the Overwhelming ability would not take effect because it is contingent upon a successful Combat Check.

So, if the Flute was successful, there is no Combat Checks made at all and therefore, Overwhelming does not take effect.
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Tibs
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From a thematic standpoint I can see why Overwhelming wouldn't activate, but...

Shouldn't Riots still activate their terror ability? And wouldn't you get a prize for fluting the Dunwich Horror? Wouldn't defeating a Mi-go offer a Unique Item?

It's strange to me that Overwhelming would be the one exception, even though it follows the same semantics as Riots and the DH.
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Jeff Hoffman
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I have already house-ruled the definition of Overwhelming to match the official definition of Nightmarish (except instead of Horror check, it is a Combat Check).

From the rulebook:
Nightmarish X: Any investigator that passes a Horror check when
facing this monster still loses X Sanity. This ability doesn’t apply if
the investigator fails the Horror check.

Overwhelming X: Any investigator that defeats this monster in
combat still loses X Stamina. This ability doesn’t apply when the
investigator fails his Combat check against the monster.


My house-rule on Overwhelming:

Overwhelming X: Any investigator that passes a Combat check when facing this monster in combat still loses X Stamina. This ability doesn’t apply when the investigator fails his Combat check against the monster.


So, if you use the Flute against the Dunwich Horror or a Mi-Go, you do not get a reward. And the Riots do not activate their terror ability.

However, it may be easier (and to keep with theme) to instead just house-rule the Flute and Lightning Gun to say that the Overwhelming ability does not apply.

That way, you do receive a reward against the DH and the Mi-go and the Riots activate their terror ability.

Or, leave all rules as is so that Overwhelming does take effect with the Flute and Lightning Gun.

Those are the 3 options. Hmm...I'll have to think this one over.

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Jeff Hoffman
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OK, after sleeping on this, I have decided for my games to not house-rule anything on this subject and leave the rules as is. Until there is official clarification, I will play the following as written:

Endless: Monsters defeated cannot be collected as trophies. It does not matter how or when they are defeated.

Overwhelming: An investigator that defeats a monster in combat suffers stamina loss. Does not apply to failed combat checks.

Flute of the Outer Gods: This item can only be used in combat after a Horror Check but before a Combat Check. All Overwhelming monsters defeated will exhaust extra Stamina loss. Any rewards or consequences that require a passed combat check does NOT apply. So,no reward for defeating the Dunwich Horror, no extra terror ability from a Riot, and you can claim Mi-Go as a trophy but do not draw 1 Unique Item.

Lightning Gun: This item is not a combat item, so any Flying Monsters with Overwhelming do not exhaust additional Stamina. Also, since this is not a combat check, you can claim Mi-Go as a trophy but do not draw 1 Unique Item.

Not only does this follow the rules as written, but it actually does keep things simpler. There is only ONE Flute and ONE Lightning Gun. So, if and when they come up in play, it is easier to remember these two "exceptions." Hey, these two cards are UNIQUE for a reason.
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Frank Otte
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...plus, there is the Tcho-Tcho, which must be handled similar to the Mi-Go, and the Mission "Wave of Destruction", which must be handled similar to the Flute of the Outer Gods.
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