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Subject: Trade Fairness - What to do? rss

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Mike West
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Ok, here is something that happened on the last European Maths Trade and i'd like to know your opinion of what i should do? I'll try and present it as even handedly as possible.

I bought a shrinkwrapped copy of Puerto Rico Limited Edition for £15 at a local auction. I then put this up in the european maths trade. Wanting to share the joy a bit, i was happy to trade it for stuff less than it's full worth (£45 or so) but more than i paid so people in the chain benefit like i did.

The item i ended up trading it for was a collection of MTG cards with a 'Foil Metalworker' which i valued at around £22-25, and a bunch of other stuff in it that came to around £10, so around £35 total.

I wrapped up Puerto Rico like i have done for 75-80% of my 120 or so previous trades on the geek with bubble wrap and brown paper and posted it off.

Unfortunately over 7 years, this was maybe my 2nd ever parcel that got damaged, the top of the box was squashed and one of the corners split. The guy i sent it to was understandably unhappy.

I then received the MTG collection, and found that the metalworker was in a right state, the top left back corner was damaged and most of the back was bumpy as if it had once got wet. I said to the MTG guy, 'oh well, i guess that's the risk you take when you do trades with people on the 'geek'.

The chap i traded to didn't have the same opinion (which is obviously his right), and as he only wanted PR for his collection as he is a collector, so said the copy was worthless for him. He said i could buy him a new copy of PR or the game he traded (both he valued at £60) and i would pay for him to send PR back (£16 round trip). We talked about this for a while, it all went a bit angry and public and then back into private email again where i said i'd pay him £12.50 to cover the damage initially and see if i could get some cash out of the guy who gave me the MTG and pass it on.

Well, the MTG guy said 'The other chap wanting £25 is way over the top, it's just a damaged box' and then wouldn't pay me either.

The PR chap has got back to me now wanting the other £12.50.

Currently i have paid £15 (PR cost for me) + £8 (postage) + £12.50 (compensation to PR guy) = £35.50 (Total) for a collection of magic cards that i thought would be worth around £35 but which actually are worth around £15 maybe.

That is bad enough, but PR guy still wants the other £12.50 and the MTG guy isn't paying me.

I've been on this website for 7 years now and don't want to get a reputation for being a bad trader but i feel in this difficult situation i've already been fair, what say the BGG community?

Ta,

Mike.......

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Simon Lundström
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Without having traded much, I say it depends on whether you think it's your responsibility that the parcel got damaged.

Speaking for you, one might argue that a collector who wants stuff in pristine condition probably shouldn't trade for it from a non-shop.

Also speaking for you, the card you got was obviously not damaged in the shipping, so that's quite unfair by the guy who traded it to you.

Not that I don't understand it's annoying for the guy who wanted PR.
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Bruce Gazdecki
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As much as I feel for you, I think you owe the PR guy his remaining money and then just move on. Bubble wrap and brown paper doesn't really seem to be a good way to ship stuff, as I've had things damaged that were shipped with packing peanuts and/or bubble wrap in a shipping box.

While I agree with the previous poster that "collectors" shouldn't be getting stuff in trades, with no offense more care should've been taken in packing.
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Birder
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Do you have the option to use package insurance? When it's something like this I will take a picture of the package just before I send it off. If the buyer didn't want it insured, that's on them, in my opinion.
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Chris in Kansai
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I do a lot of buying on various auctions and in over a hundred purchases I have never once received a game sent with only bubble wrap and paper packaging. Every single time the game has been sent in some kind of cardboard box.

I think your Puerto Rico guy's entitled to be aggrieved that a limited edition game wasn't sent in sturdier packaging and I also think you're letting the MTG guy off too lightly! A card in that state should have had its condition highlighted in the trade description.

Your call what to do, but in an ideal world the fact that you're getting stiffed on the cards shouldn't influence your doing the right thing by the PR guy.
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Michael Barlow
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Collectors should be up front that they are collectors and that they expect a mint game properly protected and listing its condition prior to shipping, as opposed to a player who, as long as the game is playable, would stand you a little leeway.
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Mike West
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Chrysm wrote:
I do a lot of buying on various auctions and in over a hundred purchases I have never once received a game sent with only bubble wrap and paper packaging. Every single time the game has been sent in some kind of cardboard box.

I think your Puerto Rico guy's entitled to be aggrieved that a limited edition game wasn't sent in sturdier packaging and I also think you're letting the MTG guy off too lightly! A card in that state should have had its condition highlighted in the trade description.

Your call what to do, but in an ideal world the fact that you're getting stiffed on the cards shouldn't influence your doing the right thing by the PR guy.


I know two wrongs don't make a right, but around 30-40% of packages i recieve are like that. I got one from Belgium 2 weeks ago that was literally wrapped in a layer of newspaper and nothing else, it got to me fine though..
 
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Patrick Brennan
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Gothnak wrote:
I know two wrongs don't make a right, but around 30-40% of packages i recieve are like that. I got one from Belgium 2 weeks ago that was literally wrapped in a layer of newspaper and nothing else, it got to me fine though..


Not sure about European customs but fwiw, in Aus, it's pretty much unheard of for a game to be shipped in anything but a sturdy box, and also usually with bubble wrap or peanuts inside that box. If I ever received a game wrapped in paper, even if it had bubble wrap, I'd be aggrieved, and if it were damaged, I'd definitely expect the sender to take responsibility and make it right.

I'd agree that if the MTG card wasn't listed as damaged in the posting in the maths trade, you've the right to make him make that right to you as well, including sourcing an undamaged card and getting it to you.

But the two transactions are separate ... what you resolve with the PR guy, and your obligation there, has nothing to do with the MTG guy.
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Chris in Kansai
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Gothnak wrote:
Chrysm wrote:
I do a lot of buying on various auctions and in over a hundred purchases I have never once received a game sent with only bubble wrap and paper packaging. Every single time the game has been sent in some kind of cardboard box.

I think your Puerto Rico guy's entitled to be aggrieved that a limited edition game wasn't sent in sturdier packaging and I also think you're letting the MTG guy off too lightly! A card in that state should have had its condition highlighted in the trade description.

Your call what to do, but in an ideal world the fact that you're getting stiffed on the cards shouldn't influence your doing the right thing by the PR guy.


I know two wrongs don't make a right, but around 30-40% of packages i recieve are like that. I got one from Belgium 2 weeks ago that was literally wrapped in a layer of newspaper and nothing else, it got to me fine though..


Yeah, I realise Japan isn't exactly the norm for this kind of stuff - I once got sent a game with one cube missing and the seller sent me another copy to make good.
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Brett
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Reprint wrote:
Collectors should be up front that they are collectors and that they expect a mint game properly protected and listing its condition prior to shipping, as opposed to a player who, as long as the game is playable, would stand you a little leeway.


I agree. By not telling you what his reason for trading for the game was he didn't give you the chance to take extra precautions in shipping. I think just bubble wrap is a sub-standard way to ship but you did send him some money to make up for the damage and if the game arrived good enough to play I would say you don't need to pay him any more.
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Tim Gilberg
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Gothnak wrote:

I wrapped up Puerto Rico like i have done for 75-80% of my 120 or so previous trades on the geek with bubble wrap and brown paper and posted it off.


Bubble wrap and brown paper.

Your fault. Completely and totally. Thanks for making this clear. I will make sure to never put an item of yours on my trade list, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

However, the other trader is on the hook for getting you the card you traded for in proper shape. There is no "risk you take" of an item not being as described. Probably best to name names here as he is also someone most would want to be sure never to trade with.

Quote:
I've been on this website for 7 years now and don't want to get a reputation for being a bad trader but i feel in this difficult situation i've already been fair, what say the BGG community?


You're described behavior is that of a bad trader. Therefore you would seem to deserve the reputation for being a bad trader.
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Tim Gilberg
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Reprint wrote:
Collectors should be up front that they are collectors and that they expect a mint game properly protected and listing its condition prior to shipping, as opposed to a player who, as long as the game is playable, would stand you a little leeway.


Grape Ape wrote:

I agree. By not telling you what his reason for trading for the game was he didn't give you the chance to take extra precautions in shipping. I think just bubble wrap is a sub-standard way to ship but you did send him some money to make up for the damage and if the game arrived good enough to play I would say you don't need to pay him any more.


Really?

For those that need a basic refresher, it is never acceptable to not properly package a game for shipping. Full stop. Nor is it ever acceptable not to accurately describe the condition of the item you are trading. Full stop. If you can't handle those two incredibly simple guidelines, you should not be trading games here.
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Mike West
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Gilby wrote:
Gothnak wrote:

I wrapped up Puerto Rico like i have done for 75-80% of my 120 or so previous trades on the geek with bubble wrap and brown paper and posted it off.


Bubble wrap and brown paper.

Your fault. Completely and totally. Thanks for making this clear. I will make sure to never put an item of yours on my trade list, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

However, the other trader is on the hook for getting you the card you traded for in proper shape. There is no "risk you take" of an item not being as described. Probably best to name names here as he is also someone most would want to be sure never to trade with.

Quote:
I've been on this website for 7 years now and don't want to get a reputation for being a bad trader but i feel in this difficult situation i've already been fair, what say the BGG community?


You're described behavior is that of a bad trader. Therefore you would seem to deserve the reputation for being a bad trader.


Well, there we have the friendly face of the BGG community. The week after PR arrived i went out and bought a massive roll of super strong bubble wrap and will now only post stuff with that and cardboard. The 117 positive feedback i have so far doesn't exactly smack of bad feedback does it, thanks for your overgeneralising, i'll certainly put you on my bad trader list too with your charming attitude.

After the around 70-30 concensus on here that it is my fault for PR and not my fault for MTG, i'll pay up and get a bit angrier with the MTG guy. Better packing in future from my end.

Thanks all (Apart from Gilby of course ).

Mike........
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Tim Gilberg
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Gothnak wrote:

Well, there we have the friendly face of the BGG community. The week after PR arrived i went out and bought a massive roll of super strong bubble wrap and will now only post stuff with that and cardboard. The 117 positive feedback i have so far doesn't exactly smack of bad feedback does it, thanks for your overgeneralising, i'll certainly put you on my bad trader list too with your charming attitude.


Why do you want friendly? I want trades that go off as trouble-free as possible. Being friendly and letting non-acceptable behavior slide just leads to future trading partners not realizing that they're in for a bad situation.

If your own description of your behavior describes a bad trader, then there really is no need to read your feedback.

Again, the basic rules for trading (math or otherwise) that are needed for smooth transactions are to accurately describe what you are trading and to properly package when you ship. Almost any problem that arises is from someone not following one or both of those two rules.

Quote:
After the around 70-30 concensus on here that it is my fault for PR and not my fault for MTG, i'll pay up and get a bit angrier with the MTG guy. Better packing in future from my end.


If the consensus had been 30-70 the other way would you have refused to change your behavior?

And don't just get a bit angrier. Use the resources available to you. Get the mods involved.
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Jason Hinchliffe
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Gilby wrote:
Gothnak wrote:

I wrapped up Puerto Rico like i have done for 75-80% of my 120 or so previous trades on the geek with bubble wrap and brown paper and posted it off.


Bubble wrap and brown paper.

Your fault. Completely and totally. Thanks for making this clear. I will make sure to never put an item of yours on my trade list, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

However, the other trader is on the hook for getting you the card you traded for in proper shape. There is no "risk you take" of an item not being as described. Probably best to name names here as he is also someone most would want to be sure never to trade with.

Quote:
I've been on this website for 7 years now and don't want to get a reputation for being a bad trader but i feel in this difficult situation i've already been fair, what say the BGG community?


You're described behavior is that of a bad trader. Therefore you would seem to deserve the reputation for being a bad trader.


Wow...are you constipated? He doesn't wrap very well, maybe we should advise him that there is a standard that is expected, and despite the fact that he's had no problems thus far, its finally caught up with him.

But out and out calling him a "bad trader", I mean, there's more factors to trades than how well you wrap. I seriously think you're WAY over the line here.
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clockwerk76 wrote:

But out and out calling him a "bad trader", I mean, there's more factors to trades than how well you wrap. I seriously think you're WAY over the line here.


Not at all.

He said he didn't want the reputation of being a bad trader. I pointed out that his behavior is that of a bad trader and that, therefore, he would deserve that reputation.

And if anyone else were to post in a thread here that they always use improper packaging they would deserve a reputation as a bad trader as well.

He has stated that he is changing the behavior that I assert would earn him a reputation as a bad trader.
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You are talking about two seperate issues.

1. You were in the wrong regarding PR. Sellers should do everything possible to make sure items sent get there undamaged. Bubble wrap and brown paper does not cut the mustard. Next time, use a sturdy cardboard box, packing material and bubble wrap. Also mark it "Fragile", not that it would do any good. Seems most postal and shipping services like to play rugby with their packages, so it's up to you to pack it using that frame of mind.
So on issue 1. : Your responsibility to make things right with the buyer.

2. You got screwed on the Magic cards. Go after that seller until he makes things right. Fixing issue 2.: His responsibility to make things right with you.
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Gothnak wrote:


After the around 70-30 concensus on here that it is my fault for PR and not my fault for MTG, i'll pay up and get a bit angrier with the MTG guy. Better packing in future from my end.


Well it's nice to know it's all sorted. Thanks for stepping up and making things right, although I do recognise that throughout the transaction you acted in good faith and with good intensions.

*The seller of the MTG sent damaged goods - whereas your goods were damaged in the post - there is a major difference here. I would follow this up. Sending damaged goods and not declaring it is a serious offence IMO. I would look into contacting Octavian if he doesn't make it right.

*This said all games should be bubble wrapped and placed in cardboard boxes in my opinion.

*Collectors should not have to declare that they want the goods to arrive in the same condition as listed. If something is damaged in the post I think it is the sellers responsibility to take the hit (even if the item was packaged properly) - though if the buyer can help soften the blow then its always nice.
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Springheeledjack wrote:
You are talking about two seperate issues.

1. You were in the wrong regarding PR. Sellers should do everything possible to make sure items sent get there undamaged. Bubble wrap and brown paper does not cut the mustard. Next time, use a sturdy cardboard box, packing material and bubble wrap. Also mark it "Fragile", not that it would do any good. Seems most postal and shipping services like to play rugby with their packages, so it's up to you to pack it using that frame of mind.
So on issue 1. : Your responsibility to make things right with the buyer.

2. You got screwed on the Magic cards. Go after that seller until he makes things right. Fixing issue 2.: His responsibility to make things right with you.


This. MtG guy has nothing to do with making things right with PR guy.
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Melissa
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Packing Puerto Rico without a box (paper/bubble wrap) = Bad idea.

Though I have made ONE exception to this when I shipped out a copy of Bermuda Triangle. (old school thrifted game, the box was already torn. Putting it in a box would have almost tripled the shipping and the buyer wasn't that particular about condition so we saved big time with brown paper.)

HOWEVER, a brand new game in plastic, goes in a box. I don't care if it's only going across the street. I can understand why he was pissed.

Trading a card that's not in the condition described, heck yes, be mad. That's unethical from the start.
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Jason Hinchliffe
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Gilby wrote:
clockwerk76 wrote:

But out and out calling him a "bad trader", I mean, there's more factors to trades than how well you wrap. I seriously think you're WAY over the line here.


Not at all.

He said he didn't want the reputation of being a bad trader. I pointed out that his behavior is that of a bad trader and that, therefore, he would deserve that reputation.

And if anyone else were to post in a thread here that they always use improper packaging they would deserve a reputation as a bad trader as well.

He has stated that he is changing the behavior that I assert would earn him a reputation as a bad trader.


Ok, seriously, you are so off the rails here it isn't even funny. This is flat out militant.

Packaging quality is not the only standard of a good or bad trader. Expediency, communication, honesty, compromise are all important qualities. He's been shipping badly for a while, but thus farm, it appears he never had a problem. Finally he had one. As a result, he';s changing his behaviour.

For you to make a blanket judgement based on ONE ASPECT of many (and one he openly accepts he needs to change) and make a public statement flat telling he deserves to be known ass a bad trader is PREPOSTEROUS.

You need to back off.



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I'm more of a seller than trader. But if I got a game, improperly packaged, damaged due to that improper packaging, I'd be pissed at the person who improperly packaged it.

Get some boxes...shake
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Tim Gilberg
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clockwerk76 wrote:

Ok, seriously, you are so off the rails here it isn't even funny. This is flat out militant.


No. It's not.

Quote:
Packaging quality is not the only standard of a good or bad trader. Expediency, communication, honesty, compromise are all important qualities.


I didn't say they weren't. But they all mean nothing if you then fail to do your job and properly protect what you ship. I find it amazing that you have trouble comprehending this.

Quote:
He's been shipping badly for a while, but thus farm, it appears he never had a problem. Finally he had one. As a result, he';s changing his behaviour.


I'm shocked that there wasn't a previous problem. It's likely that there was but he was allowed to slide by someone who decided to just suck it up. No one should have had to do so. That's the issue.

Quote:
For you to make a blanket judgement based on ONE ASPECT of many (and one he openly accepts he needs to change) and make a public statement flat telling he deserves to be known ass a bad trader is PREPOSTEROUS.


So you think basic reality is preposterous? If he is known to package completely inadequately he should be known as a bad trader. That's a conditional statement, but it's quite absolute if that condition holds.

He said he's changing his behavior. If he does not do so he beyond a doubt would deserve a reputation as a bad trader. The person he received the damaged magic card from should also be known as a bad trader.

Quote:
You need to back off.


Trades work when people follow the rules. People that don't follow the rules publicly need to be called out so those that do follow the rules know to avoid them. I'm uncertain of your motives in so strenuously defending poor trading behavior.
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Gilby wrote:
So you think basic reality is preposterous? If he is known to package completely inadequately he should be known as a bad trader. That's a conditional statement, but it's quite absolute if that condition holds.


No.

A "bad trader" is someone I would expect to be late, untrustworthy and troublesome.
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There are two separate issues here, unrelated except insofar as they coincidentally were links in the same Math trade.

1. You sent a game to a guy in inadequate packaging and it got damaged. That's on you. Make it right and either replace the game the guy sent off or replace the game you gave him.

2. Some other guy lied (through omission) about the quality of some cards. That's something he needs to make right.

It's unfortunate that both of these happened at the same time, but there is no reason one should be dependent on the other. You should do what's right and take care of the guy you sent PR to. In fact, just conflating the two events like you have seems like a disingenuous attempt at rousing sympathy. You screwed up, fix it.
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