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Ora et Labora» Forums » General

Subject: Ora & Labora Re-play Question rss

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Eric Rasmussen
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Am I wrong, or in a solo (or even multi-player) game if you make the exact same decisions in the exact same order you end up with the exact same result? The only variability comes from your (or your opponents)actions? No dice, nothing random, no variable starting or variable card sets. It's still fun, but after my first play, this notion seems plausible.
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Emile de Maat
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Moved Thread
Moved this thread from the General Gaming forum to the Ora et Labora General forum.
 
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Kevin 'Rocky' Robertson
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You could say that, but then there are a lot of choices to be made and why make the same ones again when you could make a few small changes at the beginning to grab a higher score?
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Eric Rasmussen
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Thanks for moving this and the reply!

So if someone wanted to figure it out, there is a "best play" option to always get the best score possible. That being said, wouldn't there always be a "Best Play" move in every game on every turn based on the current situation? Something about that feels odd to me, like I don't have a strategy. I sit and wonder if I made the wrong decision. Again, its still fun, but I have a board game sickness.
 
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Dave Eisen
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rasmuse wrote:
Thanks for moving this and the reply!

So if someone wanted to figure it out, there is a "best play" option to always get the best score possible. That being said, wouldn't there always be a "Best Play" move in every game on every turn based on the current situation? Something about that feels odd to me, like I don't have a strategy. I sit and wonder if I made the wrong decision. Again, its still fun, but I have a board game sickness.


It is plausible and in fact correct.

Of course, chess suffers from the same flaw and seems to continue with active play and no firm agreement on what the best first move for white is, let alone, having been broken to the point where early game moves are drawn from a hat.

Ora et Labora is in theory deterministic, but after 16 games (most of which are 3-player full game, probably 2/3 of them on the Ireland scenario) I have no firm idea of what the best first move of the first player is, let alone, what the best early game strategy is. It seems to have plenty of replay value even given the lack of randomness: I still want to play many more times.
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Clyde W
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The game space of Ora is huge, far far larger than chess, which also lacks any random elements and has been studied intensely for centuries and is still unsolved. I doubt Ora will be solved soon either.
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Bruce Murphy
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clydeiii wrote:
The game space of Ora is huge, far far larger than chess, which also lacks any random elements and has been studied intensely for centuries and is still unsolved. I doubt Ora will be solved soon either.


Oh? far larger? What are the numbers?

B>
 
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Clyde W
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I am just WAG that one, admittedly, but in a 2p long game (with all buildings and no limit on turns) the game state seems massive. I don't care to calculate though. Do you? If not, what's your WAG?
 
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Bruce Murphy
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clydeiii wrote:
I am just WAG that one, admittedly, but in a 2p long game (with all buildings and no limit on turns) the game state seems massive. I don't care to calculate though. Do you? If not, what's your WAG?


It turns out that actually doing the calculations is the responsibility of the person making the outrageous claims.

As a starting point, the game-states of chess are generally estimated at around 10^43, so ~ 1 million atoms per state on this planet.

There's also the interconnectedness to consider. As you move through a game of OeL, your future possible states are likely to decrease much faster than in the midgame of a game of chess.

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Clyde W
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Indeed, you're right.

Amend my statement: having played both games (chess quite a lot, Ora 10 or so times) the game state of Ora appears far, far larger to me than chess.

In any case, Ora doesn't suffer from replayability issues due to a small game state. It might suffer from other reasons.
 
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Philihp Busby
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thepackrat wrote:
There's also the interconnectedness to consider. As you move through a game of OeL, your future possible states are likely to decrease much faster than in the midgame of a game of chess.


As more buildings are built, you get more options. Once the Hospice is built after D the possibilities are crazy.

For example, look at this: http://philihp.com/weblabora/showGame.do?gameId=4660 at "U(F27,Wn)|U(F09)|U(G01)|U(G28)|S(S08,5,4,PtWoMtMtBrBrGpShShShShGnGnGnGnGn)|D(5,HILLS)". Toward the end of the game, I used the palace to use the cloister garden to use the priory to use the castle to settle the hilltop village. And the crazy thing is, chaining like that happens in a lot of my games.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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As you move more pieces out from their starting positions in Chess the options open up as well. A perhaps more interesting question would be to develop a concept of meaningful difference in game states, since quite a few trivial permutations with OeL aren't different in game-state terms.

B>
 
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Retired Hurt

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But in O&L the game also opens progressively (enough to construct new buildings, deciding how much to spend in conversions, and above all possible actions because more buildings have been built).

Calculations would be almost impossible, but it seems clear that more positions are legally possible tha in chess : there are more possible "pieces", more available spaces (especially with 3-4 players), the board is extendable in various ways. Of course, many positions would be utterly absurd if you meant to play to win, but this is even more true about chess.

One game has countable psitions : go. There are obviously 3^361 possible positions (many are unobtenaible, but this is true about chess too) ; that's about 2 * 10^172.
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