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Subject: FFG 70x70mm Square Sleeves available now! rss

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Jerome Nivet
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Fantasy Flight Games have released square sleeves (70 x 70mm):

http://store.fantasyflightgames.com/productdetails.cfm?sku=F...




As per the product page:

"50 sleeves per package.
Package Color Code: Light Blue
Fits Cards of This Size: 2 11/16" x 2 11/16" (70 x 70 MM)
Examples of games with cards that this sleeve will fit: Power Grid™, Catan Card Game™, The Rivals for Catan™, and many others"

The last bit should read "many others, and especially Among The Stars
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Konstantinos Kokkinis
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The Diamond Geezer wrote:

The last bit should read "many others, and especially Among The Stars


I am not really sure these sleeves will fit AtS cards. AtS cards are also 70mm x 70mm.

Our own custom sleeves for AtS are 72mm x 72mm and they will be way cheaper.

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Aleš Smrdel
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3pod wrote:
The Diamond Geezer wrote:

The last bit should read "many others, and especially Among The Stars


I am not really sure these sleeves will fit AtS cards. AtS cards are also 70mm x 70mm.

Our own custom sleeves for AtS are 72mm x 72mm and they will be way cheaper.



But the real question for consumer is: Are they going to be available after you pick up your custom stock and distribute it to your backers?

FFG offers that sleeve size since they are making them for their own games (probably will support that size for some time). Will Mayday Games add 72x72 sleeves to their preminum selection and support that size in the future when customers will need to replace their sleeves?

I am sorry if this looks like a flame but is not intended to be. I am just pointing out a strategy that could go sideways in your business model - so maybe it is worth to rethink size of the card and shave of that mm on each side.


 
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Konstantinos Kokkinis
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RRunner wrote:
3pod wrote:
The Diamond Geezer wrote:

The last bit should read "many others, and especially Among The Stars


I am not really sure these sleeves will fit AtS cards. AtS cards are also 70mm x 70mm.

Our own custom sleeves for AtS are 72mm x 72mm and they will be way cheaper.



But the real question for consumer is: Are they going to be available after you pick up your custom stock and distribute it to your backers?

FFG offers that sleeve size since they are making them for their own games (probably will support that size for some time). Will Mayday Games add 72x72 sleeves to their preminum selection and support that size in the future when customers will need to replace their sleeves?

I am sorry if this looks like a flame but is not intended to be. I am just pointing out a strategy that could go sideways in your business model - so maybe it is worth to rethink size of the card and shave of that mm on each side.



We use 4 different sizes of cards in our games. We intend to have our future productions use those 4 sizes as well. We will keep restocking those sizes and keep selling them through our web-store at a low cost. We are not interested in entering the sleeve selling industry, we just want to offer an economic solution to people who choose our games
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Oliver Graf
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Just checked my Catan Card Game cards for reference: they are 69x69mm.
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Aleš Smrdel
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3pod wrote:

We use 4 different sizes of cards in our games. We intend to have our future productions use those 4 sizes as well. We will keep restocking those sizes and keep selling them through our web-store at a low cost. We are not interested in entering the sleeve selling industry, we just want to offer an economic solution to people who choose our games


That is exactly the info I was expecting
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Andreas Vecstric
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3pod wrote:
We are not interested in entering the sleeve selling industry, we just want to offer an economic solution to people who choose our games

Yet, by choosing the size of your cards without looking at what is already out there on the sleevemarket, then entering the sleeve selling industry is just what you are.

If your game had cards 1-2 mm smaller than the size you have chosen, then if I buy your game at my FLGS, there would be a 99% chance that I could pick up sleeves for that at the same time. Now, with your 1-2 mm to big cards (if the FFG-sleeves don't work, we haven't seen them yet), there is close to 0% chance of my FLGS having sleeves for just your few games in stock. I will have to go online and spend freightcost just for that. Something that most people probably wont bother with.

It's an economic win for you in any way though. If I go online and buy your custom sleeves = more $$ to you. If I don't buy sleeves and play the game anyway = more tearing on the cards = bigger chance of buying a replacement copy when it is torn apart = more $$ to you.

I wish the industry could just come up with something like 10 different cardsizes and be done with it. :-/
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Fredericus Rex
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Ezel wrote:
3pod wrote:
We are not interested in entering the sleeve selling industry, we just want to offer an economic solution to people who choose our games

Yet, by choosing the size of your cards without looking at what is already out there on the sleevemarket, then entering the sleeve selling industry is just what you are.

If your game had cards 1-2 mm smaller than the size you have chosen, then if I buy your game at my FLGS, there would be a 99% chance that I could pick up sleeves for that at the same time. Now, with your 1-2 mm to big cards (if the FFG-sleeves don't work, we haven't seen them yet), there is close to 0% chance of my FLGS having sleeves for just your few games in stock. I will have to go online and spend freightcost just for that. Something that most people probably wont bother with.

It's an economic win for you in any way though. If I go online and buy your custom sleeves = more $$ to you. If I don't buy sleeves and play the game anyway = more tearing on the cards = bigger chance of buying a replacement copy when it is torn apart = more $$ to you.

I wish the industry could just come up with something like 10 different cardsizes and be done with it. :-/


Don't get me wrong your arguments are very valid. But I doubt that Artipia will make the big money with their sleeves.
 
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Thanasis Patsios
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lydon wrote:
Just checked my Catan Card Game cards for reference: they are 69x69mm.


Yes, both Catan card games (Rivals and Starship) fit better the Ultra-Pro 69x69 square sleeves. These already are 1 mm or 2 higher than whats's needed, I imagine FFG sleeves will leave a greater gap on top and add one on the sides.
 
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Konstantinos Kokkinis
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Ezel wrote:
3pod wrote:
We are not interested in entering the sleeve selling industry, we just want to offer an economic solution to people who choose our games

Yet, by choosing the size of your cards without looking at what is already out there on the sleevemarket, then entering the sleeve selling industry is just what you are.

If your game had cards 1-2 mm smaller than the size you have chosen, then if I buy your game at my FLGS, there would be a 99% chance that I could pick up sleeves for that at the same time. Now, with your 1-2 mm to big cards (if the FFG-sleeves don't work, we haven't seen them yet), there is close to 0% chance of my FLGS having sleeves for just your few games in stock. I will have to go online and spend freightcost just for that. Something that most people probably wont bother with.

It's an economic win for you in any way though. If I go online and buy your custom sleeves = more $$ to you. If I don't buy sleeves and play the game anyway = more tearing on the cards = bigger chance of buying a replacement copy when it is torn apart = more $$ to you.

I wish the industry could just come up with something like 10 different cardsizes and be done with it. :-/


Drum Roll
5.9 x 9.1cm standard euro sleeves (sold by everyone)

Briefcase
5.9 x 9.1cm standard euro sleeves (sold by everyone)- You can just use sleeves only for these cards inside the game. These are the ones taking damage from deck building.
8 x 8 cm - these don't go around much and have a white border. It would take many many plays for these to be damaged without sleeves
4.35 x 6.75 - these move around but are not shuffled and also have white border. Again I'm sure you don't really need sleeves for these if you are a little careful.

Among the Stars
7 x 7 cm - 6.8 was extremely small since we wanted the card artwork to be large and enjoyable. 8x8cm was too large and you would need a huge table to play the game on. We selected 7x7cm as the best solution.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A couple of reasons that show that we are not entering the sleeves field. Not for profit at least.

1) We are only going to sell those sleeves to individuals. not retailers etc.
2) The pricing will be much lower compared to whats already out there. Why would we sell cheaper if we wanted to profit from that? 3 out of 4 of our sizes would only fit our own games so it is not like we sell cheap to get customers.

Our campaign for Among the Stars was perhaps our main seller for the game. All those backers are getting sleeves for free. Lots of sleeves! If you add this to the cheap cost of the ones to be sold you will see there is actually not much profit involved



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Runcible Spoon
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Mayday seems to make 2 basic types of sleeves in terms of the thickness of the sleeve.

1. 'Penny' sleeves which are 40 microns thick and are basically garbage.

2. 'Premium' sleeves which are 90 microns thick which is fine.

Do you know if these sleeves will be 'penny' or 'premium'?
 
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Runcible Spoon wrote:
Mayday seems to make 2 basic types of sleeves in terms of the thickness of the sleeve.

1. 'Penny' sleeves which are 40 microns thick and are basically garbage.

2. 'Premium' sleeves which are 90 microns thick which is fine.

Do you know if these sleeves will be 'penny' or 'premium'?


It's 40 microns.
 
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Runcible Spoon
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3pod wrote:
It's 40 microns.


Thank you for the response.

Ugh.

Those are really low-grade sleeves. soblue

For comparison most premium sleeves are around 100 microns.

So they are cheaper than most others because they aren't very good, this is not a bonus in my opinion.

I have tried Mayday's other 40 micron sleeves in the past and it was just wasted money and I ultimately threw them out and got good ones.

As an indiegogo backer I am not satisfied with this.

It really is too bad Artipia chose 7 cm instead of 6.8 or 6.9 because then fans of the game would at least have many more sleeve options and more importantly they could actually get good sleeves.

The argument that 1 square millimiter, or even 4 square millimeters, gives that much more room for the art/text is pretty lame given that we are now locked into crappy sleeves.

If it matters, which it probably doesn't, I would still love to see the cards be 6.8 or 6.9 so that I can at least buy better sleeves.
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Jerome Nivet
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I too am disappointed that Artipia went with non-standard card sizes, or at least with sizes for which sleeves already exist.

I posted this thread in all my enthusiasm thinking/assuming that the FFG sleeves would fit, adding noise on the communication line. For this, I apologize. This thread really has no further purpose now..

I think Artipia have somewhat shot themselves in the foot with the non-standard card sizes. That's as close as vendor lock-in gets in the industry I suppose. Still, not a biggie.

At least they have come up with a solution of some sort by releasing appropriate sleeves, which is more than what many publishers do for non-standard card sizes..

edit: syntax
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Konstantinos Kokkinis
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I have contacted Mayday and asked if there is still time to switch to premium quality. fingers crossed.
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3pod wrote:
I have contacted Mayday and asked if there is still time to switch to premium quality. fingers crossed.


Whoa

1. That was fast...I mean really fast!
2. Thank you!

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Vangelis Bagiartakis
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You will probably think I'm biased to take part in this conversation, however even if I was not related at all with the project I would still say the exact same thing:

Mayday's sleeves are not as bad as you make them sound. Almost all of my games in my collection that are sleeved, have "penny" sleeves from Mayday. And that was AFTER trying some other alternatives (Ultra Pro, Swan PanAsia etc).

There is no doubt that premium sleeves would be much better. I don't think anyone says otherwise. However, the cost for something like that is much higher. I, for one, would never buy premium sleeves for my boardgames. I think they are too expensive for what I need them to do. I can do my job with penny sleeves perfectly fine and although I also have seen difference in the width of some of Mayday's ones, I never had any other complains. (Btw, someone from Mayday has posted in another thread that they changed manufacturer and that there won't be issues with different width from now on).

The above is just my personal opinion and has not been a factor in Artipia Games' decision to go with Mayday. However, given the fact that the vast majority of people I know also use Mayday penny sleeves, I don't think there is such a big problem here.
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Fredericus Rex
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I honestly don't see any problems. I mean guys!
I was also a little bit worried, that I could not sleeve the company cards from Briefcase. What did Artipia Games? Made a solution! And contacted Mayday and we get now sleeves for all games.
I don't give a f*** if they are penny or premium. I use both in my collection as long as they fit.
Calm down a little bit okay? And lets be glad for what we get.

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3pod wrote:
I have contacted Mayday and asked if there is still time to switch to premium quality. fingers crossed.


When you hear back from them next year let us know the response... Kidding... but not really.
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I'm alright with the thin sleeves. I'm getting them for free anyways

I don't have a hard time believing Arpitia would sell sleeves so players can sleeve the game if desired. I think it's a selling point for the game. I also view it as a solution.

The Diamond Geezer wrote:
At least they have come up with a solution of some sort by releasing appropriate sleeves, which is more than what many publishers do for non-standard card sizes..
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Im realy dissapointed that FFG sleeves wont fit (i alreayd bought them...) Mayday Games doesnt make really good sleeves no matter if its the premium or not. Also, FFG sleeves are thicker than the premium Mayday.

For some people its not important, for me it is.

I bought a batch of 80 packs of sleeves from Mayday one day and most of the sleeves were not the exact same size, many cards couldnt even fit even if Mayday were promoting the sleeves for the game.

I really dont understand why a company would use a completely different size of cards than what is on the market. This is really dissapointing because Among the stars and Briefcase look like solid games.
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I have my cards sleeved in the FFG square sleeves now (got them yesterday, the sleeves that is; got the game in Essen).

They work perfectly fine (including shuffling the cards, i.e. riffle shuffle)!

Bye
Thanee
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Jon Bowker
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This is what I've wanted to hear. I too already bought FFG sleeves in anticipation of AtS's delivery.

As far as the true dimension of the sleeves and the description on the package. I'm pretty sure FFG labels their sleeves to the maximum sized card that will fit comfortably into their sleeve, and not the plastic's outside dimension.
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I got today my Kickstarter edition and want to second that the FFG sleeves fit perfectly. Its a tight fit, but the cards can be sleeved easily without any risk of damaging the cards.
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