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Subject: Checking to see if we taking shoot tokens at the right time rss

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Kevin Rhodes
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We have been playing that you only get a shoot token when at least one card is given to a player as damage. If you hit a player with no cards they wipe out but you do not get a shoot token. This is what the rules say verbatim, but since the rules don't specifically say what to do when no cards are given as damage some discussion has come up.
 
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Ethan Nicholas
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Rastazed wrote:
If you hit a player with no cards they wipe out but you do not get a shoot token. This is what the rules say verbatim.


Depends. If the player has zero cards because they already wiped out, they do not wipe out again this turn (page 9). If they have zero cards because they previously took exactly enough damage to bring them to that point but not cause them to wipe out, then I believe the rulebook is ambiguous (does it still count as "making them discard cards"?), but I personally play it that you get a Shoot token for doing some form of damage to them (either discarding cards or wiping out).

I don't think there's any valid reason whatsoever for not getting a Shoot token in this one edge case, but I do think that attacking someone who has already wiped out this turn (and thus cannot wipe out again) would not net you a shoot token, because you cannot actually damage them in any way.
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Kevin Rhodes
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I don't see the rules as ambiguous - they clearly say you must discard 1 or more cards. I find this rule book pretty clear most of the time. In this case however we have players who want to know for sure what happens when no cards are discarded. Is the shoot token a reward for getting cards or for making a good roll? My feeling is the distinction of having to give away cards is what is rewarded, otherwise why bother with mentioning cards at all? The rule could then just read, whenever players hit a target they get a hit token. The requirement for cards being given out is the only reason to mention cards at all in regards to getting a shoot token. I think...
 
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Ethan Nicholas
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The rules say that you take a shoot token when you make a target discard cards. The ambiguity comes from the fact that I did make you discard cards, according to previous section, but then we hit an exception because you didn't have any cards to discard. So if I cause you to discard cards, but you have no cards to discard, does that count as making you discard cards or not? The ambiguity seems pretty stark to me, honestly.

It's the same as a condition in a game triggering when you do, say, "10 or more damage". I rolled 25 damage, but the target has only 8 hitpoints. So did I do 10 or more damage or not? Some games specify what happens in this case (and they specify it differently), some don't.
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Robert Finamore
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The rules on page 13 state:

"Roll the number of dice listed on the weapon accessory card. The target must subtract one Rally card from his hand for every [splatter] that is rolled."

and

"If the target does not have enough Rally cards to discard the damage caused he wipes out (see wipe out on page 5)."

and

"The attacker is rewarded with one shoot token every time a weapon or Rally attack card damages a competing driver (making the player discard one or more Rally cards)."

Based on this, I believe that the target discarding Rally cards and the attacker receiving a shoot token are both results of doing damage (in the form of splatters) to the target. Getting a shoot token is not the result of the target discarding Rally cards.

I see how you can read the last quoted statement above to mean shoot tokens are only rewarded when cards are discarded; however, consider the following rule from page 9:

"You can’t wipe out again until the following turn, even if you take additional damage this turn. You can only wipe out once per turn."

This indicates you can still take damage even if you have wiped out (and have no Rally cards).

In a nutshell, even if the target has no Rally cards, you are still doing damage when you roll the splatters; therefore, you get a shoot token.
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MushroomHunter
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So essentially you can shoot a car that has wiped out this turn just to get a Shoot Token, even though they have no cards in their hand since they've just Wiped Out?
 
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Robert Finamore
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malkneil wrote:
So essentially you can shoot a car that has wiped out this turn just to get a Shoot Token, even though they have no cards in their hand since they've just Wiped Out?


I reached out to the game designer and it turns out that my interpretation is not correct. He indicated that:

"Damage is DISCARDING CARDS"

Therefore, you do not get a Shoot Token when attacking a player who has already Wiped Out since the target has no cards to discard.

You could still attack a player that already Wiped Out if you wanted to burn Rally Cards (discarded as Ammo or via play of a Red attack card), but that would be the only effect.

 
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