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Subject: Singles Market? rss

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Theo Seretis
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I've been meaning to ask this for a long time,but I was waiting for official confirmation for the lumpy distribution before doing so.
Has there ever been a singles market for any other LCG's that had lumpy distribution?
I know it would probably not make sense since everyone would want the 1x or 2x and anyone selling them would get stuck with the 3x, but I'd rather pay say 5$ to get my hands on some of the "rarer" cards than pay 40+ euros for an extra core set...
Alternatively does FFG ever offer the possibility of ordering a print-on-demand set of cards in order to have a 3x of everything in the core set?
 
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We have one for AGoT in our local community - usually those who've settled on their decks and are unloading the extra cards.
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Drew Dallas
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hunk wrote:

Has there ever been a singles market for any other LCG's that had lumpy distribution?


Not really, perhaps for alittle while but the cards end up costing so much you are always better off getting another core set.
hunk wrote:

I know it would probably not make sense since everyone would want the 1x or 2x and anyone selling them would get stuck with the 3x, but I'd rather pay say 5$ to get my hands on some of the "rarer" cards than pay 40+ euros for an extra core set...

The people that tried to do it for LotR ended up asking around $10 per card. Way too much IMO when you can get a core at an online discounter for $25.
hunk wrote:

Alternatively does FFG ever offer the possibility of ordering a print-on-demand set of cards in order to have a 3x of everything in the core set?


No, the quality of POD cards is not the same as the normal quality of FFG cards. You can too easily tell the difference between the cards.
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Justin Bohnet
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Darksbane wrote:

No, the quality of POD cards is not the same as the normal quality of FFG cards. You can too easily tell the difference between the cards.


I agree with this. However, if you were always using sleeves... would it matter then?

As far as I know FFG has never put out a "completion" product, though it is much desired from the Game of Thrones and Warhammer:Invasion communities.
 
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Wigmaker wrote:
Darksbane wrote:

No, the quality of POD cards is not the same as the normal quality of FFG cards. You can too easily tell the difference between the cards.


I agree with this. However, if you were always using sleeves... would it matter then?

As far as I know FFG has never put out a "completion" product, though it is much desired from the Game of Thrones and Warhammer:Invasion communities.

It wouldn't bother me because I always use sleeves but that is one reason why they don't use POD to get top up packs.
 
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I know it's not much help but you can always scan and print proxies (use sleeves and some other card). Although it's not suitable for tournament play.
 
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Theo Seretis
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Darksbane wrote:
hunk wrote:

Has there ever been a singles market for any other LCG's that had lumpy distribution?


Not really, perhaps for alittle while but the cards end up costing so much you are always better off getting another core set.
hunk wrote:

I know it would probably not make sense since everyone would want the 1x or 2x and anyone selling them would get stuck with the 3x, but I'd rather pay say 5$ to get my hands on some of the "rarer" cards than pay 40+ euros for an extra core set...

The people that tried to do it for LotR ended up asking around $10 per card. Way too much IMO when you can get a core at an online discounter for $25.
hunk wrote:

Alternatively does FFG ever offer the possibility of ordering a print-on-demand set of cards in order to have a 3x of everything in the core set?


No, the quality of POD cards is not the same as the normal quality of FFG cards. You can too easily tell the difference between the cards.



The problem with that, is that here in Greece the prices tend to be inflated..For instance AGOT's core set costs 40 euros, which would be around 50$..
And buying online isn't that much better because of the shipping costs..Unless of course if you could find some retailer that would be willing to only ship the cards and not the entire box to you, to save a few bucks...
As for the POD cards, as mentioned before, the cards are going to be sleeved so it's not a big deal.And I'd much rather pay the cost of an extra core set to get a complete set of 3x than buy 2 extra cores so I can have 3 Aesop Pawnshops.

IirionClaus wrote:
I know it's not much help but you can always scan and print proxies (use sleeves and some other card). Although it's not suitable for tournament play.


Trust me I was going to do that anyway, because I'm not sure when the game is going to come here, and I can't wait to try my hands on it.
FFG even said they are going to release a full list of the cards,so I'm hoping it's a decent quality PDF I can print from.
 
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Drew Dallas
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hunk wrote:

The problem with that, is that here in Greece the prices tend to be inflated..For instance AGOT's core set costs 40 euros, which would be around 50$..
And buying online isn't that much better because of the shipping costs..Unless of course if you could find some retailer that would be willing to only ship the cards and not the entire box to you, to save a few bucks...
As for the POD cards, as mentioned before, the cards are going to be sleeved so it's not a big deal.And I'd much rather pay the cost of an extra core set to get a complete set of 3x than buy 2 extra cores so I can have 3 Aesop Pawnshops.


Oh I agree totally. I think a top up pack would be great no matter if it was POD or regular cards, but FFG has up until this point pretty much shot it down or ignored the requests for it in other games. I wouldn't count on it happening this time.
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FFG's approach to this is really annoying - US customers can find ways around their BS, but they are screwing their customers outside the US.

Games cost 30% to 50% more in Europe, and are rarely discounted. We also pay a lot more tax on the money used to buy them, so the effective cost is nearer double the US cost.

Shipping costs on small single packages are much higher than commercial freight - generally it's not cheaper to buy games or components from suppliers outside Europe.


I haven't decided what to do yet, but one option leads to spending nothing on FFG product: if it turns out I'll have to proxy even one card, I'll "proxy" the whole game (*). If they'd provided full sets from the start I would certainly have bought one of every A:NR set and expansion.


*
A member of my play-group likes Fantasy game settings, and dislikes SciFi settings. If I have to go through the startup hassle of making decent proxies, I'll rework the whole thing into "treasure-hunting in a dungeon".

I don't know why game companies like these exploitative business models. Now that everyone has digital cameras, the infrastructure for post-processing, paper and printing is pervasive and the products are cheap. if you plan to use sleeves (as I do) the production cost of an adequate set of cards is already close to the cost of buying them.
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Qin Eng
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http://teamcovenant.com/store/a-game-of-thrones-lcg/game-of-...

they do sell something like house pack for game of thrones lcg so perhaps they might sell faction decks in the future if netrunner proved to be popular enough...
 
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Those House Packs are a positive sign, as was the change for other LCGs to provide exactly three of each card in expansion packs.

OTOH the pricing model for the A:NR base set is a strongly negative sign. It means they are staying with a predatory pricing model where they think they can get away with it.

I don't mind a "subscription" model for products, but it's a long-term arrangement on both sides. If you don't trust a monopoly supplier of a subscription product, you should not buy the first installment. And how can you trust a supplier that goes with "first hit's free" (**) ... but you need multiple "first hits" to get a really good buzz?


**
"First hit's cheap" really, but it sounds better the other way, and it's an NR quote
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Dennis Gadgaard
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With the experience gained from the LoTR LCG, I was hoping for a non-lumpy card distribution, but alas - no such luck.
The game ships as a standing invitation to proxying, which while an annoyance (getting it right so the card doesn't feel marked) is the only way to go in my opinion.

Imagine if a game allowed a score of up to 50 VP, but only came with 45 VP tokens... AND imposed a rule that you could only mark VP with the included tokens. So yeah, you could buy another copy of the game to be able to gain the final 5 VP... and be left with 40 tokens that you had no use for... and couldn't trade off since those final 5 VP were a special blue color that you're actually allowed 10 of.

Proxying makes a lot more sense than buying 3 base sets, which in my mind makes absolutely no sense at all.
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Dennis Gadgaard
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Just read the relevant passages in the tournament rules...

A deck is allowed three copies of a single card.

No proxy cards are permitted.

So, basically a level playing field will require the purchase of three base sets.
This to me is the same as setting the rules for a chess tournament if all chess sets only shipped with 7 pawns and you were not required to field all of the allowed 8. Maybe you don't need that final pawn, but I think that's a poor argument.

No thanks on tournaments then.
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Theo Seretis
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engyiqin wrote:
http://teamcovenant.com/store/a-game-of-thrones-lcg/game-of-...

they do sell something like house pack for game of thrones lcg so perhaps they might sell faction decks in the future if netrunner proved to be popular enough...


Why do I get the feeling that those are not original FFG packs, but simply repackaged cards from core and expansion sets based on houses?
If the same happened for Netrunner it would mean that we would have to buy a set for every faction we want.Not to mention this.

Team Covenant wrote:
The Core House Packs contain all the house specific cards from a single core box.


Which means you're still getting lumpy distribution,so in order to get 2 more Aesop Pawnshops I'd have to buy that pack twice.And in the end I will end up having the same amount of cards for the Shapers,as if I had bought 2 extra core sets.
Furthermore every pack costs 10$ so if I want to get just one pack for Corp and one for Runners I'll end up giving 40$.
So I really think you'll end up paying more if you buy them that way.
 
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Dennis Gadgaard
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Strictly different from the old CCG model, but strictly better? Not entirely sure about that. It seems better, but... lumpy.
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Robbie M.
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DenGad wrote:
Strictly different from the old CCG model, but strictly better? Not entirely sure about that. It seems better, but... lumpy.

It is better. Not perfect, but better. I will take fixed over random every time. My days of buying booster packs and crossing my fingers are behind me. Granted, if you are a fan of "sealed play" you may feel differently, but it's nice not hunting for singles anymore.
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Theo Seretis
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DenGad wrote:
Strictly different from the old CCG model, but strictly better? Not entirely sure about that. It seems better, but... lumpy.


The way the core sets are structured, is not really that different than the starter decks for any CCG.
You get some cards in 3x some in 2x and others in 1x.But the difference there is that the cards are also available in booster packs.
So if you feel adventurous you can always buy a few packs and hope to get what ever it is you're missing.
Or you can go online and buy the singles you need.Sure they may be costly but the option is there.And if you're a vendor selling singles you can probably sell your common cards as well in sets of 3x's or something.
But when the only way to get a card is through a costly starter, then things go to hell.
You can't buy singles cause no one in their right minds would rip apart a core set for just 5 or 6 cards, and even if they did they would cost nearly as much as a core set, so there would be no reason to buy them.
Like the house packs on that link a few posts up.

The only way I can see that FFG can remedy this is to actually sell booster packs of the core set.It might go against their LCG idea, but it would help in getting more copies of the cards we want, since the rarity is already there.
1x are rares,and can be found at say every 3 packs or so, and 2x are uncommons and are at a 1:1 ratio.
Furthermore to ensure that you don't get cards you don't want/need the boosters could be split up by either Corp/Runner or better yet factions.
Finally it would provide an easy way to have a sealed deck format, to attract new players, and also add some variety to the tournaments.

But I guess that is just wishful thinking.
 
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Theo Seretis
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roborob wrote:
DenGad wrote:
Strictly different from the old CCG model, but strictly better? Not entirely sure about that. It seems better, but... lumpy.

It is better. Not perfect, but better. I will take fixed over random every time. My days of buying booster packs and crossing my fingers are behind me. Granted, if you are a fan of "sealed play" you may feel differently, but it's nice not hunting for singles anymore.


But aren't you still hunting?
I mean if you want to get your hands on another Rabbit Hole, you either have to look for someone who isn't going to play that card, or buy an additional core set.
So you're still hunting cards.The difference is that your options of obtaining said card, are far more limited.
Not to mention that the cost is far greater than it would have been in a CCG.Especially on the 3rd core set, which you'll be essentially buying for 5 or 6 cards.So 40/6 would be more than 6$ per card.
 
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For those people complaining about the $5 or more cost for single cards when buying a second and/or third core set, take a minute to compare the cost to that of rares in past CCGs. Back in the days I played CCGs, a useless rare was going to cost you $2-$3, an occasionally useful rare would be about $4-$7, and the really good rares had a price tag of $10-$20 or more.

To collect a complete set of cards, I'd usually buy around $90 in boosters. This usually gave me the majority of the set, but I'd still have to go out and buy about five more rares. I'd end up with, generally, 2-5 of every common card, 1-2 of every uncommon card, and 1 of every rare with the occasional double.

I bought my Android Netrunner preorder for $29. If I choose to buy a second or third core set, I'm still getting a lot more value for my money.

The discussion about lumpy distribution no longer applies to the expansions as FFG now includes 3x of every card in every expansion for all their other LCGs.

...

All that being said, I want a darned "Core Set Companion" to bring me up to 3x of every card. If part of FFG's plans for profit includes selling three of every core set to the hardcore players, then they could compensate a little by bumping up the price of this Core Set Companion and include premium items in addition to the cards. I'd envision things like translucent acrylic tokens, themed sleeves, play mats, and a box that'll comfortably transport two decks and all the game bits so I could take a smaller box to tournaments.
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hunk wrote:
engyiqin wrote:
http://teamcovenant.com/store/a-game-of-thrones-lcg/game-of-...

they do sell something like house pack for game of thrones lcg so perhaps they might sell faction decks in the future if netrunner proved to be popular enough...


Why do I get the feeling that those are not original FFG packs, but simply repackaged cards from core and expansion sets based on houses?
If the same happened for Netrunner it would mean that we would have to buy a set for every faction we want.Not to mention this.


Because that is what they are. TC's packs are not an official FFG product. It is a great service they offer if you are only looking for a specific faction or two, but if you are looking for complete sets then they are more expensive (as they have to be for TC to make a profit).
 
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GreatBucketGod wrote:


All that being said, I want a darned "Core Set Companion" to bring me up to 3x of every card. If part of FFG's plans for profit includes selling three of every core set to the hardcore players, then they could compensate a little by bumping up the price of this Core Set Companion and include premium items in addition to the cards. I'd envision things like translucent acrylic tokens, themed sleeves, play mats, and a box that'll comfortably transport two decks and all the game bits so I could take a smaller box to tournaments.


This is where FFGs, "We just want to create a good experience out of the box," argument fails a bit. I don't blame them for making money... money is something I want them to make. But, I can't stand the waste of buying three core sets. With Lord of the Rings, it was obscene. With Netrunner, it still won't be awesome. There will be lots of extra cards floating around, not to mention bits.

I love GreatBucketGod's option to have an expensive premium pack with shiny extras. I just don't like the idea of spending money on nothing. With traditional CCGs, you could buy a pack and get lots of cards you couldn't use. It was just wasteful. Same with this model. It's WAY WAY WAY better, but sometimes stopping two inches before the finish line can feel more frustrating than never getting close. I'm not lamenting over the recent Magic release... because I know the model is so far from what I like that I'm not considering buying it. But, this model does make me a bit sad.

After buying one core set, I'd rather spend $90 on a premium core set companion filled with cool stuff than $80 on two more core sets including a pile of duplicated junk I can't use (alongside some stuff I can use).
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Quizoid wrote:
After buying one core set, I'd rather spend $90 on a premium core set companion filled with cool stuff than $80 on two more core sets including a pile of duplicated junk I can't use (alongside some stuff I can use).

Hmm, maybe there's a business model for FLGS in there? Ripping open some boxes, throwing away half the cards, and then adding some extras and a new "core set companion" box?
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Theo Seretis
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GreatBucketGod wrote:
I bought my Android Netrunner preorder for $29. If I choose to buy a second or third core set, I'm still getting a lot more value for my money.


And that's great for you.Hope you enjoy the game.
But like I and another non-US geek said, the prices outside the US are incredibly higher.
Here's the way things are in Greece,and please try to walk in my shoes for a bit.

AGOT's core set costs around 50$, there aren't any pre-orders and FFG games are only sold/supported by a certain chain of stores, which only has 5 stores in the wider vicinity of Athens.There is no competition to drive the prices down, and if you want in, you're pretty much SOL.
And even if I wanted to pre-order the game for 29$ like you did, I'd have to pay at least 20$ more for shipping,rendering the whole point moot.
Singles on the other hand, are "born and raised" per se in the US, and their prices are based on the price of the core set there.
So if someone where to buy a set for 29$ and split it up he could in theory sell all neutral and faction cards for 5$ a set and still make some profit.
And I could afford to buy it, since it would only cost a few extra bucks to have a small envelope shipped to me, as opposed to the huge box.

So you see, a singles market is better for me and others like me.
Or if you want to view it another way, with the money it would take me to buy 3 core sets, you could buy 5!

P.S. The store carrying (some of) FFG's products is called Fantasy Shop.
Ironic huh?

Darksbane wrote:
hunk wrote:
engyiqin wrote:
http://teamcovenant.com/store/a-game-of-thrones-lcg/game-of-...

they do sell something like house pack for game of thrones lcg so perhaps they might sell faction decks in the future if netrunner proved to be popular enough...


Why do I get the feeling that those are not original FFG packs, but simply repackaged cards from core and expansion sets based on houses?
If the same happened for Netrunner it would mean that we would have to buy a set for every faction we want.Not to mention this.


Because that is what they are. TC's packs are not an official FFG product. It is a great service they offer if you are only looking for a specific faction or two, but if you are looking for complete sets then they are more expensive (as they have to be for TC to make a profit).


Before clicking the link I was kinda hoping that they were officially released by FFG, since it would mean that
1)I could buy them locally and
2)they would be cheaper.
Hence my disappointment.
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haslo wrote:
Quizoid wrote:
After buying one core set, I'd rather spend $90 on a premium core set companion filled with cool stuff than $80 on two more core sets including a pile of duplicated junk I can't use (alongside some stuff I can use).

Hmm, maybe there's a business model for FLGS in there? Ripping open some boxes, throwing away half the cards, and then adding some extras and a new "core set companion" box?


Sure... I think it should cost $79.90.
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Two core sets is more than enough to make any deck you would like, and one set is perfectly playable. Since expansions don't have the same configuration, if you thought 2+ core sets was prohibitively expensive you could just buy one and wait for expansions.
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