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Subject: The Jinteki Timing Issue rss

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B C Z
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The Jinteki Timing Issue

Jinteki’s special identity ability is: "Whenever an agenda is scored or stolen, do 1 net damage."
This is a trigger (agenda scored | agenda stolen) and an effect: do 1 net damage.
We’ve recently seen a ruling that states that if the Runner scores his 7th (or more Agenda) that the Jinteki effect does not kick in, because the Runner ‘immediately won the game’.
I’d like to challenge that ruling and understand why the following scenarios are different.

Anna and Bob are playing in an elimination tournament, which means this rule is in effect:
Quote:
Note that in elimination play, the match can be decided before completing the second game. If this happens there is no need to complete the second game.

I take this quote to mean the following:
If the first game was Anna 7, Bob 5 then the maximum match points Bob can score (with a win in the second game) is 15. If Anna gets 6 or more Agenda points then the game ends immediately and Anna takes the match.

Now let’s look at the Jinteki effect.

Anna played the Corp for her win and Bob is playing Jinteki this time around. Anna already has 5 Agenda points stolen and has just successfully completed her run. Anna has no cards left in hand and is about to access the lone card in this data fort.
Scenario 1: This is an Agenda and it’s worth 2 points. Anna scores the Agenda, taking her to 7 Agenda points and she immediately wins. She is not flatlined.
Scenario 2: This is an Agenda and it’s worth 1 point. Anna scores the Agenda, taking her to 6 Agenda points and…
(a) Anna takes a point of net damage and flatlines
(b) Anna wins immediately! She has enough stolen Agenda points to take the match, and any other effects are not important.

Which is it?

I don’t believe these scenarios should be different. I believe that the Jinteki effect should ALWAYS apply and that the Runner should not be allowed to claim victory if they are flatlined in the process of an action.

I’m extremely uncomfortable with the introduction of a timing mechanism that interrupts all other normal flow of the game to declare Victory. At a minimum any concurrent effects (such as the Jinteki effect which says ‘Whenever an Agenda is scored or stolen…’) should be handled as it is part of the Access. Ideally, Victory was should be checked ‘between actions’, and not ‘during them’.
 
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Karl Hiesterman
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If you don't do it this way, then who wins in your Scenario #1? The Runner who gets the Agenda points, or the Corp for flatlining the runner?

I personally have no problem with a game ending immediately when someone achieves Victory Conditions. Lots of games do this...
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karlhiesterman wrote:
If you don't do it this way, then who wins in your Scenario #1? The Runner who gets the Agenda points, or the Corp for flatlining the runner?

I personally have no problem with a game ending immediately when someone achieves Victory Conditions. Lots of games do this...


My point is that the Ability of Jinteki is a concurrent effect. Whenever (something happens), do this other thing.

So in Scenario 1, the Corp would win because the Runner did not survive the theft.

It's like Android: Infiltration. If you don't get out of the facility, you can't win regardless of how much data you stole.
 
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Based on the past tense wording of the Jinteki ability "Scored" or "Stolen" and the phrase "Whenever an Agenda" (as opposed to "Before an Agenda"), I interpret the Identity effect of Jinteki to kick in only after the Scoring/Stealing of the Agenda is full resolved. At which point the runner gets bopped for 1 net damage as a separate effect.

As for the Elimination Rule, it says that the match can be decided. If the match was decided by Anne's accessing a single Agenda point is it not irrelevant whether or not she is flatlined? If it was relevant then the match wasn't yet decided, if it wasn't relevant then it's not relevant.
 
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Candi wrote:
Based on the past tense wording of the Jinteki ability "Scored" or "Stolen" and the phrase "Whenever an Agenda" (as opposed to "Before an Agenda"), I interpret the Identity effect of Jinteki to kick in only after the Scoring/Stealing of the Agenda is full resolved. At which point the runner gets bopped for 1 net damage as a separate effect.

As for the Elimination Rule, it says that the match can be decided. If the match was decided by Anne's accessing a single Agenda point is it not irrelevant whether or not she is flatlined? If it was relevant then the match wasn't yet decided, if it wasn't relevant then it's not relevant.


Whether or not Anna flatlines affects the Prestige points earned by Bob and can affect future 'strength of field' decisions.
 
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Micheal Keane
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byronczimmer wrote:

Whether or not Anna flatlines affects the Prestige points earned by Bob and can affect future 'strength of field' decisions.


None of that is in play in elimination stage of the tournament. For all three outcomes of your two scenarios, the end result is the same - Anna advances to the next round.
 
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Dusty
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In an elimination game it doesn't matter if you flatline them or not.

If the first game was 10 to 5 and the winner of the first match is scoring their 6th point it doesn't matter if you flatline them immediately after they have gotten 16 points and the highest you can get is 15 so the game ends immediately and they win.

From what I read of the tournament rules there is no Prestige in elimination, just elimination. Prestige only matters during swiss.

EDIT: Yeah, what ffaristocrat said.
 
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Jeff Lindsay
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The Jinteki ability is past tense. Stealing the agenda is completely resolved, then the ability is triggered before another card is accessed (if one would be.) Part of resolving a stolen agenda is winning the game immediately if you have 7+ points.

Even if you assumed the effects were simulatenous
Rulebook wrote:
If players ever want to perform simultaneous effects at the same time, the player whose turn it is resolves all of his effects first.


Runner would resolve stealing first and win, leaving anything the corp wanted to do at the same time unresolved because the game is over.
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I concede the point re: elimination play - Anna wins with her 6 points regardless of what else happens.

I'm still not happy that the Jinteki ability can effectively be ignored at the end of a match against them. It seems like a weakening of ability and will create other timing conflicts about when a Victory is scored.

I don't believe I've ever played a game where triggered effects aren't accounted for in a game ending scenario. The 'triggered effects' and the dust has to settle before a victor is named.
 
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Ben Finkel
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For the ability to have been weakened, it first needed to be as strong as you thought it was. Jinteki's ability seems to have been planned not to effect the winning steal from the beginning - it was never weakened from that lofty height.
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Lee Shelton

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byronczimmer wrote:
I don't believe I've ever played a game where triggered effects aren't accounted for in a game ending scenario. The 'triggered effects' and the dust has to settle before a victor is named.


I vaguely remember reading something somewhere that even accounts for this in a lore-wise sense... talking about how even if the Runner bites the dust, he's still made arrangements to leak all of the Corp's big bad plans out onto the Net where they will be exposed for the cretins they really are.

Am I imagining this?
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SIMON WRAY
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byronczimmer wrote:
I concede the point re: elimination play - Anna wins with her 6 points regardless of what else happens.

I'm still not happy that the Jinteki ability can effectively be ignored at the end of a match against them. It seems like a weakening of ability and will create other timing conflicts about when a Victory is scored.

I don't believe I've ever played a game where triggered effects aren't accounted for in a game ending scenario. The 'triggered effects' and the dust has to settle before a victor is named.


It does appear to go against the grain - I would normally expect to fully resolve all conditions and knock-on effects before sitting back and checking the win condition.

Is anyone aware of other cards that could cause more serious conflicts/issues, in order for the victory timing rules to work this way?
 
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Jeff Lindsay
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I understand it may not be what you'd prefer, but I'm not sure how these rules could lead to timing conflicts. They are pretty explicit.
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Peter Hall
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If a typical game ends, say, 7-4, with each agenda being worth 2.5 points, that's five agenda scored/stolen over the course of the game. If you figure that the ability helps the corp in two ways, and one of them (limiting opponent's options) is already out of play in an end-game scenario, it doesn't really seem like this ruling is a huge consideration in valuing the Jinteki ability.

Most of the time, it just means the runner needs to eke out another card in hand or damage prevention before making the run that puts them at enough VP to win. Obviously, it's possible that they could come up just short, or that a surprise could leave them vulnerable to flatlining, but it's going to be pretty rare.
 
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dangerouslycheesy wrote:
Most of the time, it just means the runner needs to eke out another card in hand or damage prevention before making the run that puts them at enough VP to win. Obviously, it's possible that they could come up just short, or that a surprise could leave them vulnerable to flatlining, but it's going to be pretty rare.


One card is potentially an entire Click, and I have seen the original game come down to 1 Click (action) or Credit (bit).

 
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Jens Kreutzer
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Quote:
The Jinteki ability is past tense.


Sorry to nitpick, but this is not the past tense. It's called the passive.

The past tense of the passive is was stolen.
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Jeff Lindsay
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Touché.
 
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byronczimmer wrote:
I don't believe I've ever played a game where triggered effects aren't accounted for in a game ending scenario. The 'triggered effects' and the dust has to settle before a victor is named.


This is how the granddaddy of CCGs plays, actually. In Magic, if lethal damage is on the stack but a player is down to 0 life, state based effects are checked and the surviving player wins even if he/she would die once the next stack object would resolve.

The trigger has to be triggered off of something. By the time the Jinteki ability even fires the Runner has already won the game. I thought this was completely intuitive but maybe I've spent way too many years looking at the comprehensive rules...
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Enon Sci
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Candi wrote:
Based on the past tense wording of the Jinteki ability "Scored" or "Stolen" and the phrase "Whenever an Agenda" (as opposed to "Before an Agenda"), I interpret the Identity effect of Jinteki to kick in only after the Scoring/Stealing of the Agenda is full resolved. At which point the runner gets bopped for 1 net damage as a separate effect. .


I know this has been ruled upon, but seeing as how FFG has reversed rulings before (and what we've gotten has been unofficial, at least in the sense it's a word of mouth ruling), let me show why this doesn't make sense regarding the rules as written:

According to the rules for Runners scoring agendas on pg. 18 of the PDF document, conditional effects that use the word "steal" go into effect, so it's in the spirit of the rules to not ignore Jintek's ability (despite the fact this commentary only makes reference to text on an agenda's card).

Stealing Agendas, Rule Book: Pg 18 wrote:

If the Runner accesses an agenda, he steals it and places it
faceup in his score area, resolving any conditional abilities on
the agenda that use the language “When you steal.”
While an
agenda is in the Runner’s score area, it adds its agenda points
to his score. The Runner cannot decline to steal agendas he
accesses.


This wording implies the concurrence Byron was arguing for (i.e. resolving being a concurrent action with the movement of the card into the scoring area -- it doesn't say "then resolve," or anything else that might imply a non-concurrent sequence of events).

Let's be clear here, per the rules, if the net damage was the result of the agenda itself, there would be no ambiguity: the Runner would lose. Whether one wants to extend this provision to identity cards is the real point of contention.

Official errata?

P.S. All that aside, thematically speaking, I'm unsure whether the Runner's demise should matter much in the grand scheme of victory. If the intent is taking down the Corporation, sacrificial victories are not unheard of. How this sits with you depends on how you interpret what the thematic meaning of each side's respective "victory" to be -- is it destroying the corp? Thwarting a specific set of plans? etc.
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Jon Day
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The ruling as - is makes perfect sense to me - the agenda is resolved and state based checks are done - oh I've won the game, no need to continue.
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Jeremy Owens
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Sorry for the ignorance, but where was this ruling put forth?

Edit: Nevermind... found it. I hadn't read through the rulebook massive thread.

Additionally, I'm not intending to dive into the argument on one side or the other, but just because MTG is the king of CCG doesn't necessary mean Netrunner has to inherit the same State-based effect approach (and I say this as a Magic player myself.)
 
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Dominik Dollinger
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Has anyone put this question through FFGs customer feedback? If yes, then we will likely see it answered officially in a future FAQ.
 
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Jeff Lindsay
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Not an official FAQ but that is what the playtesters were told.
 
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I just lost a game because of this ruling :'(
 
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Eric Rampson
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Anarchosyn wrote:
According to the rules for Runners scoring agendas on pg. 18 of the PDF document, conditional effects that use the word "steal" go into effect, so it's in the spirit of the rules to not ignore Jintek's ability (despite the fact this commentary only makes reference to text on an agenda's card).

Stealing Agendas, Rule Book: Pg 18 wrote:

If the Runner accesses an agenda, he steals it and places it
faceup in his score area, resolving any conditional abilities on
the agenda that use the language “When you steal.”
While an
agenda is in the Runner’s score area, it adds its agenda points
to his score. The Runner cannot decline to steal agendas he
accesses.


Doesn't it make more sense to assume the rule means exactly what it says, that ONLY conditional abilities on the stolen agenda fire off? It also provides specific text, "When you steal..." which is NOT the wording on Jinteki's ability. Again, I think it is safer to assume that these choices in wording, on both the cards and in the rules, were intentional and not just mistakes (I know, I know, we are all supposed to hate FFG's rulebooks...).

Here is another bit of relevant rules text:

The Rules wrote:
Winning the Game
If at any time a player has seven agenda points in his score area,
he immediately wins the game.

If R&D contains no cards and the Corporation attempts to draw
a card, the Runner immediately wins the game.

If the Runner is flatlined (see “Damage” above), the
Corporation wins the game.


So, by the RAW, "Stealing An Agenda" consists of:

1) Accessing the Agenda card
2) Moving the Agenda to the Runner's score area.
3) Resolving any conditional abilities ON THE AGENDA that use the language "When you steal..."
4) If the Runner's score area now contains 7 or more Agenda points worth of Agenda, s/he wins the game immediately.

The "action" of stealing an Agenda isn't resolved until that agenda is placed into the Runner's scoring area. The exception to winning immediately is clearly stated in the rules as conditional effects on the stolen Agenda that trigger "When you steal..." Jinteki's ability doesn't fire off because, as part of stealing the agenda, the card was moved to the Runner's score area, which immediately ended the game.

Thematically, it isn't really made clear what the actual result of "stealing an Agenda" is - I assume the Runner is making the shady, secret plans public and, therefore, ruining them. As much fiction makes clear, the liberator of the secret doesn't need to live for the information to do its damage.
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