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Dominion: Dark Ages» Forums » Rules

Subject: Status of Ruins Card-type rss

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Derek Whaley
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Here's a fun topic: I'm working on adding the Dark Ages cards to the Dominion Complete Annotated Rules and I've run across a bit of a conondrum. What exactly is the card category for Ruins cards? I already changed the Prize category to "Special Card Types" to reflect cards like Madman and the other as-yet-unnamed special card. But it seems to me that Ruins are sort of more like Basic Cards than Special Cards. I haven't decided yet. What is the popular opinion? I already have ten formal sections in my document and would prefer not to splinter off an eleventh if I can help it. Do Ruins fit more with Special cards or Basic cards? They certainly don't qualify as normal Kingdom cards.
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James Newton
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I would say that they fit best with basic cards. This is by considering what we know about how they are used:

1. They are part of the supply - therefore not the same as Prizes, Madman etc.

2. The rule for when to use them is: If Looters are in the game, add Ruins to the supply. (I would guess that they are also used if a Looter is in the Black Market). There are actually cards of all three categories that have this - Potions for Potion-cost; Bane for Young Witch and Prizes for Tournament - but Potions feels like the closest analogue as (a) it applies to a group of cards not one card; and (b) it is not described on the cards that trigger it.

2a. I would guess that they do not have Randomizer cards - this distinguishes them from Kingdom cards.

3. The rule for how many to use is the same as Curses - 10 per opponent.

4. The pile is a random mix of 5 cards - this is unique (so far), so if you want this to make them different then no other category will do.

Given that you do not want a separate category, and they are part of the supply but selected by a rule, not a randmizer (and with quantity that signficantly varies with number of players) then they are more like Basic cards than Kingdom or "Special" cards.

However, I note that this breaks my, personal, previous definition that Basic cards has full-card images while Kingdom/Special cards have half-card images, with "what the card does" below the image. Ho hum.

EDIT to add: of course, the rule book may actually classify them as Kingdom or Basic cards when giving the rules for using them.
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Jeff Wolfe
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Having a section called "Special Card Types" could be confusing because Type has a specific meaning in Dominion. A Type is something that's listed at the bottom of the card. All the Prizes have a Type of Prize (along with at least one other Type), but the only Type Madman has is Action, which is not particularly special. The thing the Prizes and Madman have in common is that they are not in the Supply.

Ruins, on the other hand, are in the Supply, so they would seem to fit better with the basic cards than with the cards not in the Supply.
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The Compulsive Completist
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I am guessing you'll need to wait until the rule book comes out and work around that.

Not very helpful but once we read it things will probably seem clearer.
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Ryan Kane
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Whaleyland wrote:
I already changed the Prize category to "Special Card Types" to reflect cards like Madman and the other as-yet-unnamed special card.


Why not "Non-Supply" Cards?
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Nathan Morse
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jeffwolfe wrote:
Ruins, on the other hand, are in the Supply, so they would seem to fit better with the basic cards than with the cards not in the Supply.

For my card picker, I classified them as Basic cards, just like Curses et al. Like Potions, their inclusion in the setup is dependent on the presence of other cards, in this case Looter-type cards.
 
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Eagle-Eyed Superhawk
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Wouldn't they belong in whatever category you have Platinum/Colony in?

Platinum/Colony are Supply piles that are brought into the game when Prosperity cards are present. Ruins are Supply piles that are brought into the game when Looter cards are present.
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Derek Whaley
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x68zeppelin80x wrote:
Whaleyland wrote:
I already changed the Prize category to "Special Card Types" to reflect cards like Madman and the other as-yet-unnamed special card.


Why not "Non-Supply" Cards?


This may be what I have to fallback on. The name is not great, though. I guess I could also stick Trash in here.
 
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Vince Lupo
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Zedsdead wrote:
Wouldn't they belong in whatever category you have Platinum/Colony in?

Platinum/Colony are Supply piles that are brought into the game when Prosperity cards are present. Ruins are Supply piles that are brought into the game when Looter cards are present.



Situational Stacks.
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The Compulsive Completist
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"Non-supply" is very intuitive. That helps.
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Matt E
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I'd say that Ruins are definitely basic cards, being that they're in the Supply and not Kingdom cards. As for Madman, Spoils, Prizes, Black Market deck, etc., Non-supply Piles seems like a good name.
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Nick Knutsen
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Like Jeff said, you shouldn't use the word "type" at all in this context.

James gave very good reasons why Ruins should be basic cards if you use any existing category at all. I just realized that the Dominion rule books use the phrase "basic cards" (also about Potion and Platinum and Colony), but the new set with these cards is called "base cards". That probably doesn't mean anything. So the cards in the Base Cards expansion are all the official basic cards. But maybe the Ruins would be included if Base Cards were released after Dark Ages. We'll have to see what they're described as in the Dark Ages rule book.

Functionally there's no difference between basic cards like Potion/Platinum/Colony and the Young Witch's bane or Prizes/Madman.
They are all added to Supply if other cards are in Supply, except Prizes/Madman are non-Supply cards added to the game. The only other difference, which James mentions in his excellent post (which mysteriously has no thumbs), is that Potion/Platinum/Colony, like other basic cards, don't have rules for when to use them on the cards that trigger it.

So yes: basic cards, or its own category.
 
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Derek Whaley
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I agree with you and James (who I have now thumbed). I believe they will be basic cards and I have categorized them as such in my rules. Hopefully that status will not change. They fit every aspect of a basic card except that they have no Supply piles. On a similar note, I actually moved Trash to the newly-reworded category "Non-Supply Cards" since, after redefining it, it fits better there. Trash never even had an entry in the original game rules and Donald X has recently stated his wish that the Trash card had been a placard instead, which makes sense.

Regarding the release of Shelters in the Base Cards expansion, I don't think this was ever intended for the sheer reason that Shelters already have images on them whereas the other basic cards did not. Adding them to the set, though, would have been nice, but I feel some last basic card may still be coming with Guilds...
 
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Nick Knutsen
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Whaleyland wrote:
I agree with you and James (who I have now thumbed). I believe they will be basic cards and I have categorized them as such in my rules. Hopefully that status will not change. They fit every aspect of a basic card except that they have no Supply piles. On a similar note, I actually moved Trash to the newly-reworded category "Non-Supply Cards" since, after redefining it, it fits better there. Trash never even had an entry in the original game rules and Donald X has recently stated his wish that the Trash card had been a placard instead, which makes sense.

Regarding the release of Shelters in the Base Cards expansion, I don't think this was ever intended for the sheer reason that Shelters already have images on them whereas the other basic cards did not. Adding them to the set, though, would have been nice, but I feel some last basic card may still be coming with Guilds...

I think you're mixing up Ruins and Shelters here. Ruins does have a Supply pile.

Shelters don't though. So... are they basic cards too? They would be the only basic cards so far that don't have a Supply pile, actually not a pile at all. But other than that they fit best in the basic cards category. They are included like Colony/Platinum, and the rules that triggers the inclusion is not on any card.
 
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Derek Whaley
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lol. Not paying attention to my own header title. Replace most mention of Shelters in my previous comment as "Ruins". And yes, I think they both qualify as basic cards, though Shelters are never in the Supply. I currently am placing both in the Basic Cards section of my document, pending final clarification in the official rules document.
 
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