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Subject: Learn to teach and play Eclipse from the "How to Play" podcast rss

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Mike Paivinen
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Episode #39 of the How to Play podcast focuses on the game Eclipse.

This podcast gives a full rules explanation of the game which could be used for learning the game yourself or learning how to teach the game.

It is available from the HTP website at www.howtoplaypodcast.com

If you like the show, please support it by becoming a subscriber on iTunes and by joining the How to Play Guild ( http://www.boardgamegeek.com/guild/746) and leaving feedback.

Enjoy!

MikeP (on behalf of Ryan Sturm)
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Wim van Gruisen
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Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.
 
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Mike Paivinen
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Whymme wrote:
Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.
That's why they make fast forward.
 
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Whymme wrote:
Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.

If you wanted to learn how to play the game, you missed out... well done on the podcast.
 
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Geoff Speare
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It gets old -- I've heard it in many different podcasts -- when an episode opens with an extended off-topic discussion. I'm listening for game information!
 
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Whymme wrote:
Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.


shake Feel free to spend hours writing a teaching guide, recording how to play information, editing it, transcoding it, etc, and put it out to the world for free. Then come back and complain about Ryan's indulgence.

BOb
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Fernando Robert Yu
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pilotbob wrote:
Whymme wrote:
Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.


shake Feel free to spend hours writing a teaching guide, recording how to play information, editing it, transcoding it, etc, and put it out to the world for free. Then come back and complain about Ryan's indulgence.

BOb


Seconded...
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Gar Per
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freddieyu wrote:
pilotbob wrote:
Whymme wrote:
Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.


shake Feel free to spend hours writing a teaching guide, recording how to play information, editing it, transcoding it, etc, and put it out to the world for free. Then come back and complain about Ryan's indulgence.

BOb


Seconded...


Thirded. It is ridiculous to complain about something you got for free and are not in any way forced to consume, not to mention just that it is just downright insensitive and ungrateful. Comments like this are why great members of the community like Ryan get burnt out on providing content for the community. Put a ton of effort into something nice and you get feedback like this in return.

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Peter O
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The feedback could have been phrased more nicely, but its still important feedback (even if you disagree with it). If your goal to is to convey information and build an audience, you need to know what gains listenership, and what turns people away. The long off topic intro turned him away and he was good enough to report that back. Perhaps if its just a hobby, it doesn't matter. But if its a hobby hoping to develop into a profession then its critical. Many people turn off stuff without ever saying anything. Its why corporations try to bribe people with random giveaways in exchange for providing feedback. Only positive feedback with no critical analysis only helps the ego. Of course critical feedback is best received when its delivered nicely (as it makes the feedback easier to be heard and you're more likely to see a change then).
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Gar Per
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tranenturm wrote:
The feedback could have been phrased more nicely, but its still important feedback (even if you disagree with it). If your goal to is to convey information and build an audience, you need to know what gains listenership, and what turns people away. The long off topic intro turned him away and he was good enough to report that back. Perhaps if its just a hobby, it doesn't matter. But if its a hobby hoping to develop into a profession then its critical. Many people turn off stuff without ever saying anything. Its why corporations try to bribe people with random giveaways in exchange for providing feedback. Only positive feedback with no critical analysis only helps the ego. Of course critical feedback is best received when its delivered nicely (as it makes the feedback easier to be heard and you're more likely to see a change then).

Unsolicited forum feedback isn't really a good way to tailor your product. People who dislike something are more likely to be vocal than people who like something in such a setting. You'll just end up chasing your tail eliminating things a small percentage of the population doesn't like but that a large percentage of the population may and often does like. In the end, you end up with a disjointed product developed from trying to stamp out a mish-mash of random nitpicks rather than a well-planned and thought out product with an overall perspective and vision.

So feedback of this sort is largely not useful and wholly ungrateful when delivered in such a manner.

Aside from that, it is an absurd complaint. A father is excited about the birth of a child and shouldn't talk about it because you can't spare 30 seconds? You have 90 minutes to listen to a podcast and 2-4 hours to play the game, but can't spare 3 minutes to get to the game explanation? 3-4% of the podcast is stuff you don't want to hear, so that makes the whole thing not worth listening to? How many podcasts do you hear that don't have intro music, commercials, off-topic conversation, an intro, etc? And if Ryan didn't have donators to thank, he'd instead have advertisements. Would we rather be hearing how great Audible is or how to pick up the latest Kickstarter game?
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Marcelo Trein
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Whymme wrote:
Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.


Completely understandable for an apple user. =P
 
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Peter O
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nate_lockhart wrote:

Unsolicited forum feedback isn't really a good way to tailor your product. People who dislike something are more likely to be vocal than people who like something in such a setting. You'll just end up chasing your tail eliminating things a small percentage of the population doesn't like but that a large percentage of the population may and often does like. In the end, you end up with a disjointed product developed from trying to stamp out a mish-mash of random nitpicks rather than a well-planned and thought out product with an overall perspective and vision.

So feedback of this sort is largely not useful and wholly ungrateful when delivered in such a manner.

Aside from that, it is an absurd complaint. A father is excited about the birth of a child and shouldn't talk about it because you can't spare 30 seconds? You have 90 minutes to listen to a podcast and 2-4 hours to play the game, but can't spare 3 minutes to get to the game explanation? 3-4% of the podcast is stuff you don't want to hear, so that makes the whole thing not worth listening to? How many podcasts do you hear that don't have intro music, commercials, off-topic conversation, an intro, etc? And if Ryan didn't have donators to thank, he'd instead have advertisements. Would we rather be hearing how great Audible is or how to pick up the latest Kickstarter game?


I said nothing about HAVING to change the podcast due to a single point of criticism. All criticism should be taken or left due to the validity of the point offered, its relevance to the original content, and the desires of the author.

The point is that not everyone will sit through a segment of content that is not what they were expecting when following the link. And the complaint is not absurd. It is not about putting a gag order on a proud new father.

Public speaking is about providing on-ramps to capture a listeners attention and hopefully keep it. Starting with unrelated content is not necessarily going to capture peoples attention. It might if you are a long time listener or know the speaker personally, or just really like listening to new fathers. Somebody random off the internet looking for game info probably doesn't care about the personal content. That doesn't mean they hate the speaker, or wish him malice, or even that its bad content. It's just not what they thought they were signing on for and will look elsewhere for the information/entertainment they are seeking.

There is nothing inherrently wrong with starting the podcast as such. There will be a number of listeners who are not looking for such content and will go elsewhere if it doesn't get to the main point quicker. That's reality. It's pointless to blame the listener who left for not finding what they were seeking there. If the point of the podcast is just fun and the creator doesn't mind a smaller audience, more power to him! Have the fun! Share about your family! Just don't get mad at the folks who weren't looking for "Learn Eclipse, AFTER hearing about my new kid!". Just because he's the only one who spoke up doesn't mean he's the only one to have the reaction.


(And for the record, I also don't like podcasts that don't get to the point fairly quickly. Due to commercials or otherwise)
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Gar Per
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I'm not going to get into a pages long argument with you over this. I have said my piece and you could write a thesis paper saying otherwise that wouldn't convince me to change my opinion. Good day to you sir.
 
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Chris Copac
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Whymme wrote:
Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.


Some days I love the BGG community. And then there are days like today.
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Chris Copac
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tranenturm wrote:
The point is that not everyone will sit through a segment of content that is not what they were expecting when following the link. And the complaint is not absurd. It is not about putting a gag order on a proud new father.


I'd also add he's not making the podcast for everyone, and people's expectations have no bearing on what he chooses to produce.
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Dave
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I've brought this up before. The idea that free products should be exempt from criticism is ridiculous at best.

That said, it could have been formulated a little nicer.
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Wim van Gruisen
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pilotbob wrote:
Whymme wrote:
Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.


shake Feel free to spend hours writing a teaching guide, recording how to play information, editing it, transcoding it, etc, and put it out to the world for free. Then come back and complain about Ryan's indulgence.

BOb

Actually, I spent weeks (months, actually) writing a free RPG supplement, introducing and playtesting extra rules, editing what I wrote and searching for external editors, and then put it on the net for free. Having done that, I was eager to read negative comments on my product, so that I could improve the next issue.

I could have phrased it nicer, but I just wrote down my gut reaction. I don't know Ryan, but I know that he lost one potential listener. Perhaps he lost more than one, but those others didn't feel the need to give feedback. I did, and what Ryan does with it (or even if he does something with it), is completely up to him.
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nate_lockhart wrote:
Aside from that, it is an absurd complaint. A father is excited about the birth of a child and shouldn't talk about it because you can't spare 30 seconds? You have 90 minutes to listen to a podcast and 2-4 hours to play the game, but can't spare 3 minutes to get to the game explanation? 3-4% of the podcast is stuff you don't want to hear, so that makes the whole thing not worth listening to?

The point is that it's the beginning three to four percent. I had no idea how long the non-Eclipse stuff would go on; it could just as well have been the beginning 10 percent, or the beginning ninety. How is a listener, especially a first time listener, to know?

Ryan may be the nicest guy in the world, a potential Nobel prize winner and deliver the best explanation of what Eclipse is about, but if he keeps talking about non-Eclipse things in a podcast that is announced to be about Eclipse, then at some point the listener (or at least this listener) is going to stop being one.

Edit:
nate_lockhart wrote:
People who dislike something are more likely to be vocal than people who like something in such a setting.

So that means that I shouldn't be bothered by the comments of people who react negatively to my post, then? Because they are the vocal minority? Is that what you're saying? devil
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Whymme wrote:
pilotbob wrote:
Whymme wrote:
Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.


shake Feel free to spend hours writing a teaching guide, recording how to play information, editing it, transcoding it, etc, and put it out to the world for free. Then come back and complain about Ryan's indulgence.

BOb

Actually, I spent weeks (months, actually) writing a free RPG supplement, introducing and playtesting extra rules, editing what I wrote and searching for external editors, and then put it on the net for free. Having done that, I was eager to read negative comments on my product, so that I could improve the next issue.

I could have phrased it nicer, but I just wrote down my gut reaction. I don't know Ryan, but I know that he lost one potential listener. Perhaps he lost more than one, but those others didn't feel the need to give feedback. I did, and what Ryan does with it (or even if he does something with it), is completely up to him.



Constructive criticism is always good (and most times welcome). Your comments, though, are on the verge of mockery. That's not a nice way to let the author know (and why) you did not like his podcast.
 
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Andy W
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Any word on the Eclipse content of the podcast? Is the explanation of the rules done well?
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Marcelo Trein
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dragontrainer wrote:
Any word on the Eclipse content of the podcast? Is the explanation of the rules done well?


I liked it. I was hoping it would clear a few things for me which are still grey, but it is more of a standard flow rules description, if you know what I mean. I also did not like the long intro, but it is ok.
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mtrein wrote:
Constructive criticism is always good (and most times welcome). Your comments, though, are on the verge of mockery. That's not a nice way to let the author know (and why) you did not like his podcast.

You seem to confuse constructive criticism with flattery. I think that of all the posts in this thread, mine was the only one that was specifically addressing a point of the podcast. If the podcaster is reading this thread and if he does so with the aim of improving future podcasts, then I think that my post helps him more than this, for example:
mtrein wrote:

I liked it. I was hoping it would clear a few things for me which are still grey, but it is more of a standard flow rules description, if you know what I mean. I also did not like the long intro, but it is ok.

 
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All non-professional podcast I listen to are full of off-topic stuff, small talk and joking. This is a bad idea when it’s not kept to an absolute minimum (and its usually not). I listen to them anyways though.
 
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Whymme wrote:
Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.


Three and a half minutes is too long before getting to any actual content, I agree and I will try to improve this in future episodes. Thanks for your feedback.
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Fernando Robert Yu
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RyanSturm wrote:
Whymme wrote:
Pff ... Four clicks and three and a half minutes in and I know now where the podcaster lives, his family situation, that there are people who pay money to hear him talk over the internet and where those people live, but the podcast has not yet even gotten close to the point. So I switched off.


Three and a half minutes is too long before getting to any actual content, I agree and I will try to improve this in future episodes. Thanks for your feedback.


I applaude you Ryan for taking everything constructively. Love your 'casts so keep it up! Congrats on your baby!
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