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The more I read the early questions in the forums and the possible anti-climactic ways to deal with Durin's Bane (Recurring Feint with Hama, O Elbereth! Gilthonial! loophole, etc.), the more I think they should have put "Immune to player card effects" on the Balrog.

That's how they made sure we couldn't prematurely deal with the Carrock in the Trolls scenario. Only time will tell what was their intent and I'm curious to hear from anyone who made an official inquiry to FFG and got an answer.
 
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Derek Coon
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Elbereth won't really help as you need to be able to knock the Ballhog into the pit. Can't do that when he's on the bottom of the encounter deck.
 
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Bullroarer Took wrote:
Elbereth won't really help as you need to be able to knock the Ballhog into the pit. Can't do that when he's on the bottom of the encounter deck.


Again, this is not perfectly clear on the quest card. You win when you dump him into the pit and you cannot win while he's in play. Seems like you could win when he's not in play and you put one progress token on the quest card.
 
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Marcon wrote:
"Bullroarer Took" wrote:
Elbereth won't really help as you need to be able to knock the Ballhog into the pit. Can't do that when he's on the bottom of the encounter deck.


Again, this is not perfectly clear on the quest card. You win when you dump him into the pit and you cannot win while he's in play. Seems like you could win when he's not in play and you put one progress token on the quest card.

Yeah, I just reread the quest card and that was how I interpreted it: as long as he's not in play, you can win.

With this game though, good luck relying on the wording as an accurate reflection of the designer's intentions.
 
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scwont wrote:
Marcon wrote:
Bullroarer Took wrote:
Elbereth won't really help as you need to be able to knock the Ballhog into the pit. Can't do that when he's on the bottom of the encounter deck.


Again, this is not perfectly clear on the quest card. You win when you dump him into the pit and you cannot win while he's in play. Seems like you could win when he's not in play and you put one progress token on the quest card.

Yeah, I just reread the quest card and that was how I interpreted it: as long as he's not in play, you can win.

With this game though, good luck relying on the wording as an accurate reflection of the designer's intentions.


But the Quest Card specifies that you have get rid of him via the Dark Pit.
I see the confusion and I agree there really needs some clarification but the Dark Pit is how to win the quest
 
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lpknight21 wrote:

But the Quest Card specifies that you have get rid of him via the Dark Pit.
I see the confusion and I agree there really needs some clarification but the Dark Pit is how to win the quest


After re-reading a few other quest cards, I have to agree it's definitely missing the usual "If the players defeat this stage, they win the game", implying you can't win by placing a progress token on the card even if Durin's Bane is not in play anymore.
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lpknight21 wrote:
"scwont"]
Marcon wrote:
[q="Bullroarer Took"]Elbereth won't really help as you need to be able to knock the Ballhog into the pit. Can't do that when he's on the bottom of the encounter deck.


Again, this is not perfectly clear on the quest card. You win when you dump him into the pit and you cannot win while he's in play. Seems like you could win when he's not in play and you put one progress token on the quest card.

Yeah, I just reread the quest card and that was how I interpreted it: as long as he's not in play, you can win.

With this game though, good luck relying on the wording as an accurate reflection of the designer's intentions.[/q wrote:


But the Quest Card specifies that you have get rid of him via the Dark Pit.
I see the confusion and I agree there really needs some clarification but the Dark Pit is how to win the quest

It specifies that you can win by putting him in the Dark Pit, but it doesn't say it's the only way.

Why would the progress token required on the quest at all if it were never a victory condition? The wording suggests you win if you get rid of him by Dark Pit, regardless of how many progress tokens are on the quest. I'm fairly sure there's a precedent for 0-progress quest stages with alternative victory/completion conditions, i.e. 1 progress is not some kind of minimum requirement for any quest.
 
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Allan Clements
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If he was immune to player card effects then all the direct damage cards would be useless and it would be a much less fun game.

My interpretation of the final quest card is that you need to put the Balrog into the pit to win. Though it is possible the intention is for you to kill the balrog or to remove it from play some other way and complete the quest card.

It would have been nicer if the quest said "this quest cannot be completed" or "no progress tokens may be placed on this quest". A quest where you need to fight to win would be nice, making questing less important and Tactics a better sphere for it.
 
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A good general rule for guessing the designer's intentions is "err on the side of making the game harder." If you think you've found an easy mode, you're probably doing it wrong. I will play that the Balrog has to go in the pit.
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What do you all think of using Feint on the Balrog? Seems to me it would prevent him from attacking all players and with Hama, it becomes quite a devastating combo.
 
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Marcon wrote:
What do you all think of using Feint on the Balrog? Seems to me it would prevent him from attacking all players and with Hama, it becomes quite a devastating combo.


Yes looks like is working. And i found it quite stupid actually.
 
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So you could use Hama and play Feint every turn, paying 1 card and 1 resource, or you could give a character some +defense and a burning brand and ignore all damage from the Balrog each turn at the cost of play the +defense and burning brand.

Or you could use Frodo and Lore Aragorn. Frodo absorbs damage from the Balrog for a while then Aragorn resets your threat. This one lets you ignore the Balrog without needing to play any more cards than your starting heroes.
 
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I don't have the game, but follow all the posts, and youtube videos of it because I enjoy watching it, but...

Have we seen the keyword "Indestructible"? Do we know the full meaning of this keyword in the context of Shadow and Flame's rulebook?
 
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Indestructible means when they cannot be killed, by a card effect or if their health reaches zero.
 
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Kamakaze wrote:
So you could use Hama and play Feint every turn, paying 1 card and 1 resource, or you could give a character some +defense and a burning brand and ignore all damage from the Balrog each turn at the cost of play the +defense and burning brand.

Or you could use Frodo and Lore Aragorn. Frodo absorbs damage from the Balrog for a while then Aragorn resets your threat. This one lets you ignore the Balrog without needing to play any more cards than your starting heroes.


Correct and I think the Feint combo is the best among those since it effectively protects both players at a very affordable cost, although Counterspell can be a problem.
 
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Marcon wrote:
The more I read the early questions in the forums and the possible anti-climactic ways to deal with Durin's Bane (Recurring Feint with Hama, O Elbereth! Gilthonial! loophole , etc.), the more I think they should have put "Immune to player card effects" on the Balrog.


Durin's Bane reads: "Cannot leave the staging area".
 
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Found this via Cardboard of the Rings Facebook page... just wanted to make it official...

Don't know if you guys have seen this yet, but Caleb Grace responded to a question about Durin's Bane, Dark Pit, and O Elbereth! Gilthonial! over on the FFG boards:

"Durin's Bane cannot leave the staging area, so O Elbereth! Gilthonial! will not send it to the bottom of the encounter deck. This does create a problem with the text on Dark Pit. That card will receive an erratum in the next FAQ to explain that its ability supersedes the game text on Durin's Bane, making it possible for players to defeat the scenario the way it was intended. In the meantime, please play the scenario as if the last line of Dark Pit reads "This effect supersedes the game text on Durin's Bane."
Thanks,
Caleb"
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Marcon wrote:
Kamakaze wrote:
So you could use Hama and play Feint every turn, paying 1 card and 1 resource, or you could give a character some +defense and a burning brand and ignore all damage from the Balrog each turn at the cost of play the +defense and burning brand.

Or you could use Frodo and Lore Aragorn. Frodo absorbs damage from the Balrog for a while then Aragorn resets your threat. This one lets you ignore the Balrog without needing to play any more cards than your starting heroes.


Correct and I think the Feint combo is the best among those since it effectively protects both players at a very affordable cost, although Counterspell can be a problem.


Worth updating this for other players... Feint has since been errata'ed to only cover ONE player, not all players.
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