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Subject: A few questions, random as they may be. rss

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Enon Sci
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Thailand is boring at this hour, so to Android: Netrunner I go!



1) Have we seen any deck searching cards for either side yet? In the classic, I remember Runners having the advantage on this front, but I wonder if FFG will carry over that dynamic or not.

2) Have we seen any (hostile) R&D accelerators yet, besides the Anarch ability? Of the three victory conditions, one seems balanced (7 agendas), but the other two feel imbalanced; the Corp can construct a deck to cause the Runner to lose more cards than they have in their hand/have a negative hand size, but the Runner doesn't seem capable of specifically designing a deck to "flatline" the Corp's research strategies (in constructed play, I mean; one can always just run R&D and hope for the best, but that's not a really viable strategy for winning via this method -- you're more likely to get to 7 agendas before running through the deck).

3) Being on holiday, and only having a HTC Thunderbolt to type on, I haven't had the opportunity to word search the rules. On the distinction between Trash and Discard, is it safe to say one only discards during the Discard Phase, unless otherwise noted by card effects? In other words, per the rules, the word Trash is used in every other instance of a card leaving play?
 
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Micheal Keane
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The rules have mentioned cards having the first two effects though they've not been spoiled so far.

The third has been explicitly made a distinction: "trashing" is different than "discarding".
 
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Enon Sci
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ffaristocrat wrote:

The third has been explicitly made a distinction: "trashing" is different than "discarding".


I gathered, and I even know the distinction is merely in card effects (something targeting one wouldn't target the other). What I wanted to know was more nuances than that. Reread for clarity, typing on a phone sucks.
 
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Andy Mills
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A quick search of the rulebook shows that Discard is only used for end-of-turn hand size reduction. The actual entry for "discard" in the glossary bears this out. Everything else (trash effects, damage, etc) are all "trashing" cards.
 
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Paxton Rice
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1) We've seen Rabbit Hole, which can optionally find a copy of itself (and be chained together, if you use 3). No general tutor effects though.

2) Not yet. Remember, asymmetry of ease /= imbalance. Mill effects targeting the Corp are really nasty in Netrunner, simply because the runner can raid the archives. Really, the difference is more that if you build a deck such as the one you describe, but in doing so you're going to sacrifice the guaranteed security of your servers, trading "end the run" for tagging and damage. Thus, each server must be protected by multiple pieces of ice before the runner has to break subroutines in order to get in. This means that early game especially, that the runner iss going to have a lot of access.

Really, a lot of things in Netrunner seem unbalanced in favor of the Corp, but are balanced by three big things :
a) Drawing a card every turn (thus bringing up the discard problem, and having less flexibility)
b) Inherent vulnerability. The Corp starts with two targets and no defenses, and that number only goes up.
c) Reactive. The runner pick his targets, so the Corp has to spread out his defenses.

3) Again, thus far.
 
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The only 'deck search' we've really seen is Precognition, which is really just a reordering of the five top cards for the Corp.

Someone mentioned Rabbit Hole but I personally view all rabbit holes in the deck as a single card that has a higher probability of being drawn due to being distributed through the deck.

As to 'hostile R&D accelerators', not anything beyond Noise's virus install ability.

The difference between trash and discard is when they occur and what other effects can prevent them. The card still end up in the same place (the Archives for the Corp, the Heap for the Runner). To my knowledge, there are no effects that remove cards entirely from the game.
 
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Enon Sci
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Thanks, guys.

Incidentally, my reference to "leaving play" was intended to be a shorthand for discard piles, either Archive or Heap (I really dislike the Runner's card grouping names), but didn't want to muddy the waters by using the word "discard" in my shorthand. I'm aware that Dominion styled trashing hadn't been introduced.... Yet .

As to imbalances and asymmetries, Traveling Angel, I'd like to argue, but ultimately you are right. I still feel that an asymmetry must maintain a general sense of balance (separate but equalness, if that ever could make sense -- yes, American south, I'm looking at you). If the mechanic is to maintain any sense of viability*, it needs to be realistically approachable, but, I agree, they don't need to be equally as easy. My ideal, however, would to be able to make an experimental deck designed to "trash" the Corp, but leave me vulnerable in other ways. This would probably be a rush deck, and one we'd never see in professional play, but having the strategic range would be nice.


* - a classic example of asymmetry done poorly would be the original trace mechanic. The mechanics leaned so in the Corps favor that it was generally ignored by most Runners (who found it easier to deal with the tags than engage in the blind bidding to avoid the trace).

Edit: And before anybody nitpicks, the imbalance in the original trace wasn't in the bidding but the cost for participation, or rather the cost in cards necessary to make the mechanic viable for the Runner (where as the Corp had his participation baked into cards that served a larger use and purpose, namely ICE).
 
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Brian
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Demolishion rub allows the runner to access more than 1 card from R&D and trash them all. I expect to see similar cards like this. Stuff that lets you access more of R&D, which in a lot of cases would allow you to burn more of the Corps deck faster than normal.
 
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Philip Morton
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Anarchosyn wrote:
If the mechanic is to maintain any sense of viability*, it needs to be realistically approachable, but, I agree, they don't need to be equally as easy.

Why does it need to be viable, though? (I assume you mean viable as a victory path, not a mechanic--it can function just fine as a mechanic even if it never occurred.) I always just thought of it as a way to build a time limit into the game ("if the game goes until the decks run out, the Runner wins"). I don't see why that means it has to be viable to build decks around forcing that scenario.
 
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Jeff Lindsay
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serdudds wrote:
Demolishion rub allows the runner to access more than 1 card from R&D and trash them all. I expect to see similar cards like this. Stuff that lets you access more of R&D, which in a lot of cases would allow you to burn more of the Corps deck faster than normal.


Demo run just lets them trash whatever they access, even if it can't normally be trashed. Unless they have something else granting them greater than usual access to HQ or R&D they still only get to access 1 card.
 
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Enon Sci
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Chrondeath wrote:

Why does it need to be viable, though?


It doesn't need to be, no. But the more viable paths to victory a game has the more depth it offers.

When playing games like Puerto Rico, I always try to take the most circuitous and counter intuitive path to victory that I can, just to see if I can find something new. In RPG video games, like Skyrim or Fallout, I like to make the weakest character possible, just to see how far I can bend the limits of acceptability in mechanics (can I play a jinxed moron with only social skills? If so, the game gets a 10/10 across the board ). So, naturally, I'm drawn to all the avenues to victory I can in Netrunner.

Sadly, as it stands, I'm tempted with three but see only two. The Corp has two avenues to construct around (in Classic, I mean; it has yet to be seen how viable a damage dealing strategy will be with just the cards included in the core). The runner has two as well, but -- alas -- one might not be viable. Hence my lament.
 
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Until we see an article on viruses, understand their power and what they can do, stating that bleeding out the Corp is not viable is premature.

Noise has an incredible ability. He can mill R&D cards into the archive without interaction. The Corp can defend Archives and prevent Noise from getting in, at which point the bleed-out might be necessary.

It'll depend on the effects of Viruses though.
 
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Micheal Keane
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A deck milling strategy is probably not going to work in the Core set, but I think it might happen with expansions once you have more cards to reduce the cost of installation and easily pull back trashed cards.
 
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James 3
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one of the problems of "mill" as a victory condition is that it will typically lead to runner winning off agendas before the deck is depleted, either by scoring from archives or while digging deep into R&D. It will take some special cards to reduce a corp stack to zero and not have the game have ended already via the normal way. i see it as more a timer that might be more relevant at some point; if the runner has 6 AP and the corp has 6 AP, thats still 8 points of Agendas that must be somewhere!
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Philip Morton
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Anarchosyn wrote:
Chrondeath wrote:

Why does it need to be viable, though?


It doesn't need to be, no. But the more viable paths to victory a game has the more depth it offers.

When playing games like Puerto Rico, I always try to take the most circuitous and counter intuitive path to victory that I can, just to see if I can find something new. In RPG video games, like Skyrim or Fallout, I like to make the weakest character possible, just to see how far I can bend the limits of acceptability in mechanics (can I play a jinxed moron with only social skills? If so, the game gets a 10/10 across the board ). So, naturally, I'm drawn to all the avenues to victory I can in Netrunner.

Sadly, as it stands, I'm tempted with three but see only two. The Corp has two avenues to construct around (in Classic, I mean; it has yet to be seen how viable a damage dealing strategy will be with just the cards included in the core). The runner has two as well, but -- alas -- one might not be viable. Hence my lament.

But when you follow different strategies in Puerto Rico, you're still ultimately winning by victory points; you're not triggering some extra rule that says you win the game immediately if you fill three ships by yourself during the Captain phase or something.

Variable strategies to build for don't require different win conditions in the rules, is my point. I would say that Big Dig and Bozomatic in the original Netrunner were definitely following different strategies, even if they both won through stolen agendas.

All of which is not to say that you shouldn't be concerned about sameness for the runner in AD:N, though, at least in the base set. I don't think we've seen anything yet that would enable a radically different strategy, just some different possible suites of breakers and some small or one-time tweaks to the value of running on various forts (maker's eye for R&D, Noise's ability for the trash). Viruses seem like the most likely thing to change that, so we'll have to see what that looks like.

Bad Publicity used to be the Runner's equivalent to Tag & Bag, but that's definitely gone for Android.
 
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Get enough bad-publicity on the Corp and the Runs will be nearly free.

If the Runner can dish this out, it's like credits in the bank.
 
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Jeff Lindsay
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Bad publicity isn't a loss condition anymore, but it's still incredibly powerful.

Bad publicity gives the runner free credits each run. Not only is it per run, but the credits can be used for anything (traces, paying to trash cards, etc.), as they are essentially credits in your pool that you lose if you don't spend them by the end of the run.
 
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El-ad David Amir
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Chrondeath wrote:
Bad Publicity used to be the Runner's equivalent to Tag & Bag, but that's definitely gone for Android.

How did Bad Publicity work in NR?
 
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Micheal Keane
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IirionClaus wrote:
Chrondeath wrote:
Bad Publicity used to be the Runner's equivalent to Tag & Bag, but that's definitely gone for Android.

How did Bad Publicity work in NR?


Corp immediately lost if it got seven Bad Publicity counters. Less than that had no effect so it was an all or nothing type strategy.
 
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Jeremy Owens
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IirionClaus wrote:
Chrondeath wrote:
Bad Publicity used to be the Runner's equivalent to Tag & Bag, but that's definitely gone for Android.

How did Bad Publicity work in NR?


Bad Publicity used to function as "Anti-Agenda". If the Corporation reached 7 Bad Publicity, they lost the game.

Edit: Beaten to the punch.
 
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Glen Martin
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The latest article shows that at least Weyland gets access to desk searching through Aggressive Negotion
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Enon Sci
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New Question:

With advanceable ICE, these advancements last till the card is de-rezzed, right? They're not only for the run or encounter, right?
 
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Mat Nowak
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Anarchosyn wrote:
New Question:

With advanceable ICE, these advancements last till the card is de-rezzed, right? They're not only for the run or encounter, right?

Any advancement tokens that are on advanceable ice remain on that ice even if it is derezzed. If that ice is trashed then the advancement tokens would cease to exist.
 
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Enon Sci
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Mateui wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:
New Question:

With advanceable ICE, these advancements last till the card is de-rezzed, right? They're not only for the run or encounter, right?

Any advancement tokens that are on advanceable ice remain on that ice even if it is derezzed. If that ice is trashed then the advancement tokens would cease to exist.


Excellent bit of nuance, thank you for the prompt reply.

Just out of curiosity, anybody know where (or even if) this is covered in the rules? I don't remember seeing even a commentary on advancement tokens lasting past an initial encounter (though I remembered it from Classic).
 
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p22:

Hosting
Some cards can only be installed on other cards; others allow
cards to be installed on them. A card that has other cards
installed on it is called the “host card,” while the card installed
on it is called the “hosted card.” Hosted cards can leave play
without affecting their host.
Cards can also host counters and tokens. Hosted counters or
tokens can be spent, or leave play, without affecting their host.
If a trigger cost requires one or more hosted counters, those
counters must be spent (returned to the token bank) from the
card that the ability appears on.
If a host leaves play, then all cards and counters hosted also
leave play. This cannot be prevented.
 
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