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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Heroes Moving Large Monsters rss

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Trevor K
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Hey all quick question about the game. Right now this only really affects the conversion kit as far as I can tell, but it may become relevant in the future.

If a hero has a skill that allows them to move monsters around, (for example, Steelhorn's heroic feat allows him to move through monsters and 'push' them one space in any direction) would you follow the normal rules of contracting and expanding. This could allow for some significant shifts in the big monsters. For example:

O = Steelhorn
X = Shadow Dragon.

---
0--
---
XX-
XX-
XX-
---

Could his feat allow him to 'move the monster one square NE and expand again in the opposite direction, ending up like this for example:

-XX
-XX
-XX
0--
---
---
---

Or would you have to slide him around?
Thoughts?
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Jon Ben
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Shrinking and expanding is the only way you can move large monsters as far as the rule book is concerned. So yes you would do it the same way for this ability. I think your example is spot on.

For those who don't have the card in front of them this is the text:
Quote:
Heroic Feat
[action]: Move your Speed. During this movement, you may enter spaces occupied by monster figures and move those figures into an adjacent empty space (or closest empty space) of your choice.
 
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Brian Baggett
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SUBSCRIBED.

Since blocking halls with large monsters is such an integral part of OL strategy, I am very interested in this and similar questions.

There are other abilities which allow for moving adjacent to or closest adjacent space to monsters. I am always tempted to try and rationalize that I might be able to use one of these to get to the other side of the road block, but it feels like a cheat.
 
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Albert
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I don't see why we wouldn't follow the rules for contracting and expanding at the hero's choice. There are some instances (if a shadow dragon is blocking a doorway) that if you pick an adjacent space, you're kinda forced to reposition it (ie. expanding)

xxssxx
xxssxx
xxssxx
ooH+oo
oooooo

o: open spaces
H: Steel horns
+: spot that we want to move the shadow dragon to
s: shadow dragon spaces

How would we move the dragon if we don't contract and expand?
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Brian Baggett
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Wow! That could be a serious game changer in some of these race type encounters. Glad that is a Heroic Feat and therefore of limited use.
 
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Trevor K
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Yeah that was my thinking as well but just wanted to be sure. Steelhorns is making things bloody annoying in the game. Facing a party with a berserker Steelhorns (good bye blockades), a Truthseer Runemaster (Blast = dead minions, truthseer means that I rarely see the good cards in the deck) and a Disciple Andira Runehand (cures conditions and is a tanky cleric who is hard to hurt).

This is going to be a challenge to fight!
 
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Nate Bivins

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Monsters movement rules are, IMO, for monsters taking a move action and spending movement points. The overlord gets to make all decisions about such a move, like interrupting, expanding, final position and orientation, etc.

This ability simply allows you to "move" an enemy figure, but they are not doing movement like the action. Slide is a good word to describe this.

Even if you ruled that the large monster shrank, then the player certainly wouldn't get to decide how it did so. The rules are specific that the overlord decides monster orientation and expansion, etc.

I think this is bending an ability simply because it has the word "move" in it and it's abusing the large monster shrink/move mechanic that was put in place to prevent large monsters from getting blocked.
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Jon Ben
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slackerb wrote:
Even if you ruled that the large monster shrank, then the player certainly wouldn't get to decide how it did so. The rules are specific that the overlord decides monster orientation and expansion, etc.


It shrinks into the space occupied by Steelhorn and then is moved to an empty space adjacent to Steelhorn and expanded by the player controlling Steelhorn. The overlord gets to choose things when she moves the monsters not when someone else is allowed to do it.

EDIT: What I wrote isn't quite what I intended. The player should choose an adjacent empty space before shrinking the monster, i.e. the monster's occupied spaces are not considered empty once shrunk for movement.
 
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Nate Bivins

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JonBen wrote:
slackerb wrote:
Even if you ruled that the large monster shrank, then the player certainly wouldn't get to decide how it did so. The rules are specific that the overlord decides monster orientation and expansion, etc.


It shrinks into the space occupied by Steelhorn and then is moved to an empty space adjacent to Steelhorn and expanded by the player controlling Steelhorn. The overlord gets to choose things when she moves the monsters not when someone else is allowed to do it.

EDIT: What I wrote isn't quite what I intended. The player should choose an adjacent empty space before shrinking the monster, i.e. the monster's occupied spaces are not considered empty once shrunk for movement.


Based on what?

Page 16 states: "When determining movement for large monsters, the Overlord player chooses one of the spaces that the monster occupies and counts movement from the chosen space as if the figure occupied once space. When the monster ends or interupts its movement, the overlord player places the large monster figure..."

Again, this is specific to large monster movement, not what happens if large monsters are moved by an effect. Similar words, but very different meanings. Steelhorns ability does not allow large monsters to shrink, only monster movement allows it.

Let's suppose you are right and large monster shrink when any effect "moves" them, then why would the hero get to decided how he shrinks, etc? The rulebook specifically states that the overlord gets to decide such things for large monster movement.

 
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Jon Ben
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slackerb wrote:
Based on what?


I would likewise ask you why you think large monsters can slide. This isn't described anywhere, why would they intend large monsters to move differently in this case? In particular why would they intend for the rules to be different than those outlined in the rule book without alerting us to this?

Quote:
Page 16 states: "When determining movement for large monsters, the Overlord player chooses one of the spaces that the monster occupies and counts movement from the chosen space as if the figure occupied once space. When the monster ends or interupts its movement, the overlord player places the large monster figure..."

Again, this is specific to large monster movement, not what happens if large monsters are moved by an effect. Similar words, but very different meanings. Steelhorns ability does not allow large monsters to shrink, only monster movement allows it.


The rule book does describe monster movement in the context of the overlord's turn. This is the usual time monsters move, and in this case the OL decides how they move.

This heroic feat breaks the normal rules and allows a hero player to move a monster. The rules never talk about hero players doing this. The card specifically gives the Steelhorn player the ability to move a monster. If the movement rules were different than those in the rule book why wouldn't the card specify this exception to the rules as well?

Quote:
Let's suppose you are right and large monster shrink when any effect "moves" them, then why would the hero get to decided how he shrinks, etc? The rulebook specifically states that the overlord gets to decide such things for large monster movement.


The OL decides these things when the OL moves monsters. The player is given the ability to move monsters so they carry out the steps necessary to do that.

As far as decisions go the card specifically states that the monster is moved to an empty space adjacent to Steelhorn, so clearly the monster must shrink into Steelhorn's current location (which is one of the spaces occupied my the monster) then move to an adjacent space of the Steelhorn player's choosing. The only decision you could possibly be arguing goes to the OL is the expansion of the monster.
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Jon Ben
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@slackerb
It's not even clear to me what you think the difference is. I assume you're sliding idea let's the hero choose the orientation of the monster. Maybe I'm missing something or I don't quite understand what you're proposing but in this case the shrink/expand vs. slide seem functionally equivalent to me.
 
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Blake Davis
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Haha, glad you asked this, I was going to bring up a discussion on our boards about it if you didn't :) I have to agree with the others tho, it seems like the expansion rules for large monsters should work just as well for the Heroes as they do for the OL it seems. Steelhorns feat definitely changes a lot of strategy for the game.

I'm the Mod for the Op's game, btw. If anyone wants to see how it plays out, feel free to subscribe on our private forums (http://karuikage.net/forum), just send me a GM with your username so I can approve. ;)
 
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Tom H
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As well as Steelhorns a Crossbow from the shop deck can also move a monster 1 space.
 
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The Beard
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slackerb wrote:
JonBen wrote:
slackerb wrote:
Even if you ruled that the large monster shrank, then the player certainly wouldn't get to decide how it did so. The rules are specific that the overlord decides monster orientation and expansion, etc.


It shrinks into the space occupied by Steelhorn and then is moved to an empty space adjacent to Steelhorn and expanded by the player controlling Steelhorn. The overlord gets to choose things when she moves the monsters not when someone else is allowed to do it.

EDIT: What I wrote isn't quite what I intended. The player should choose an adjacent empty space before shrinking the monster, i.e. the monster's occupied spaces are not considered empty once shrunk for movement.


Based on what?

Page 16 states: "When determining movement for large monsters, the Overlord player chooses one of the spaces that the monster occupies and counts movement from the chosen space as if the figure occupied once space. When the monster ends or interupts its movement, the overlord player places the large monster figure..."

Again, this is specific to large monster movement, not what happens if large monsters are moved by an effect. Similar words, but very different meanings. Steelhorns ability does not allow large monsters to shrink, only monster movement allows it.

Let's suppose you are right and large monster shrink when any effect "moves" them, then why would the hero get to decided how he shrinks, etc? The rulebook specifically states that the overlord gets to decide such things for large monster movement.



The card specifically states that the hero gets to decide movement during the feat:

Action: Move your Speed. During this movement, you may enter spaces occupied by monster figures and move those figures into an adjacent empty space (or closest empty space) of your choice.
 
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Nate Bivins

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You guys might be right, but if so, isn't Steelhorns by far the best hero?

He can unblock any area once per encounter basically. That is far more powerful in the new quest system than any ability I have seen.
 
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Brian Baggett
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Two others that caught my eye for similar reasons. All three of these seem like a huge benefit, especially in games with only 2 heroes or when using heroes that can not fight their way through roadblocks quickly.

Zyla: Hero Ability - "You ignore all figures and terrain while moving. You must end your movement in an empty space." (basically flying)
This is not a heroic feat, this is a basic ability.

Astarra: Heroic Feat - "Use at the start of your turn to move each monster adjacent to you up to 2 spaces in any direction."

These two abilities seem pretty straight forward, unlike Steelhorns' which I could see causing a lot of arguments over which space is actually the "closest empty space". i.e. Often times moving the roadblock one direction will not clear it where as moving it the other direction might.
 
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