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Dungeon Command: Sting of Lolth» Forums » Rules

Subject: Line of sight (Cover) example in rulebook incorrect? rss

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László Horváth
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Hi,

I'm just reading the rules, and it seems for me that the Cover example on page 13 is bad.

I didn't find any other thread about it, so maybe I'm wrong.
In my understanding, the square that is two right and one down from the Wizard is considered a wall. It doesn't matter what is the shape of the wall on the graphics in the square, the whole square is a wall right?

In this case, the Mastiff has cover in his current position too.

Or am I reading something wrong?
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Ian Toltz
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I really disliked this too, but I think it may technically be correct.

The rules specifically say that squares containing enemy creatures block LOS, but they simply say that walls block LOS, not squares containing walls.

That's a very subtle distinction, and not one I would have made without that graphic. So either the graphic is wrong, or the graphic was specifically chosen because of that.

Personally, I'm going to play that squares containing walls block LOS. YMMV.
 
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László Horváth
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Heh. Leaving this up to the graphics instead specifying that squares with walls block LOS, will end up in debates between players, especially considering that the walls are not even "vertical" in the outside setting. So there is no clear and well defined line of the wall.
 
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Tom Howard
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I think that there is definitely a difference between indoor dungeon walls and outdoor cliff walls. As illustrated in the movement example here, you cannot cut diagonally across an indoor dungeon wall, but are able to do so on an outdoor tile.

Furthermore, the Line of Sight example in the rulebook clearly shows that you can draw lines across outdoor squares with walls on them, provided that the line of sight doesn't cross the wall itself.



However, I do have an issue with this example...
If the War Wizard can see every corner of the Shadow Mastiff square, including the upper right corner of that square, then the War Wizard should also be able to see the lower left corner of square "B" (After all, it's the same intersection). Therefore, the War Wizard should be able to shoot at Square B... unless I'm missing something?
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Dmitriy Deputatov
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GeckoTH wrote:

However, I do have an issue with this example...
If the War Wizard can see every corner of the Shadow Mastiff square, including the upper right corner of that square, then the War Wizard should also be able to see the lower left corner of square "B" (After all, it's the same intersection). Therefore, the War Wizard should be able to shoot at Square B... unless I'm missing something?


IIRC you need two unblocked lines traced to have LOS, and here you'll have only one
 
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Tom Howard
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If that were the case, then it'd make perfect sense. But the rulebook doesn't mention this (at least as far as I'm aware). The explanation of Cover is worded a bit backwards, but here are the relevant passages:

The Rulebook, pg 13 wrote:

Line of Sight: To determine if an attacking creature (or any
other source) has line of sight to a target creature, draw a straight
line from 1 corner of any square in the attacking creature’s space
to any corner of at least 1 square in the target creature’s space.
(You can use a ruler or a piece of string.) If that line does not
cross a wall, or a square occupied by another enemy creature or
an obstacle, the attacking creature has line of sight to the target.

Cover: Terrain that does not block line of sight might still provide
some protection from ranged attacks. If you can draw a straight
line from 1 corner of any square in the attacking creature’s space
to all 4 corners of at least 1 square in the target creature’s space
without crossing a wall, or a square occupied by another enemy
creature or an obstacle, the attacker has a clear shot at the enemy.
Otherwise, the enemy has cover from the attack.


It simply says that you have line of sight if you can see just one corner, and has cover if you can't see all four corners.
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Dmitriy Deputatov
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Strange, I was sure it was in the rulebook. Seems I just made it up
Then the illustration is clearly wrong and should be corrected
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Garyp
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+1 for the explanation given by Tom above - I also think the rule book example is wrong.

The wording is quite clear and straight forward in the rules - not really a problem in terms of game play - just an errata that could ideally be confirmed one way or the other.

 
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Chris Jackson
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GeckoTH wrote:
If that were the case, then it'd make perfect sense. But the rulebook doesn't mention this (at least as far as I'm aware). The explanation of Cover is worded a bit backwards, but here are the relevant passages:

The Rulebook, pg 13 wrote:

Line of Sight: To determine if an attacking creature (or any
other source) has line of sight to a target creature, draw a straight
line from 1 corner of any square in the attacking creature’s space
to any corner of at least 1 square in the target creature’s space.
(You can use a ruler or a piece of string.) If that line does not
cross a wall, or a square occupied by another enemy creature or
an obstacle, the attacking creature has line of sight to the target.

Cover: Terrain that does not block line of sight might still provide
some protection from ranged attacks. If you can draw a straight
line from 1 corner of any square in the attacking creature’s space
to all 4 corners of at least 1 square in the target creature’s space
without crossing a wall, or a square occupied by another enemy
creature or an obstacle, the attacker has a clear shot at the enemy.
Otherwise, the enemy has cover from the attack.


It simply says that you have line of sight if you can see just one corner, and has cover if you can't see all four corners.


That's not exactly what it says. Big creatures take up multiple squares, and if you can see all four corners of just one of those squares, the big creature has no cover.
 
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Tom Howard
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chrsjxn wrote:

That's not exactly what it says. Big creatures take up multiple squares, and if you can see all four corners of just one of those squares, the big creature has no cover.


Yeah, that's true, but that doesn't have any bearing on the issue I'm illustrating.
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László Horváth
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Yes, Tom has a good point about square B having LOS.

I still have problem with determining LOS from the graphics though. As this is a "slope" on the picture instead of a wall, why do You check LOS against the bottom of the slope? Why not e.g. the middle?

Maybe I overemphasize this, but it really bothers me that LOS definition may change map-to-map and player-to-player.

At least it should be clearly visible on each square where the wall ends. Or categorize wall square types.
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Mike
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So how have you guys been playing it, for the purpose of movement?

Cannot cut any corners on indoor tiles, but can cut corners on outdoor tiles?
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Ryan R

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Mike1977 wrote:
So how have you guys been playing it, for the purpose of movement?

Cannot cut any corners on indoor tiles, but can cut corners on outdoor tiles?
A wall is a wall. No distinction is made between indoor and outdoor walls. You cannot cut corners in either environment.

And I'll go ahead and throw my two cents in on the original topic -- the illustration is definitely in error. If the War Wizard has a clear shot (all 4 corners) to the Shadow Mastiff's square, then by simple logical deduction it has LOS to every square adjacent to the Mastiff, including square B.

I'm guessing they meant to put square B above square A, not to the right of it. The square above square A is definitely out of LOS -- no line can be traced between any corner of that square and the War Wizard's square.
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Ant Brooks
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I concur that the example seems to be incorrect. As far as I understand things, a wall either completely fills a square or it doesn't.



In which case the War Wizard has LoS to the Shadow Mastiff, but the Mastiff gets cover from the wall.

The example would make a lot more sense if the Mastiff and squares A and B were all moved one space to the left. The War Wizard would then have a clear line of sight (without cover) to the Mastiff, a line of sight (with cover) to square A and no line of site to square B.
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Tom Howard
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Krychek wrote:
Mike1977 wrote:
So how have you guys been playing it, for the purpose of movement?

Cannot cut any corners on indoor tiles, but can cut corners on outdoor tiles?
A wall is a wall. No distinction is made between indoor and outdoor walls. You cannot cut corners in either environment.


I disagree -- the rulebook does make a distinction between indoor and outdoor walls. I'll copy the post I made from this thread

The rulebook states: "...a creature cannot move diagonally around the corner of a dungeon wall." (emphasis mine)

This is illustrated with the image below:


Then on Page 11 of the Rulebook, there's an image of a Copper Dragon cutting across the corner on an outdoor tile:

The fact that he's "flying" should have no effect in this example.

And in response to Echohawk, the rulebook does mention squares with partial walls, on page 10: "Each square a creature moves into must be a legal square. A legal square cannot be more than half covered by a wall."

Therefore, the rules do allow for walls to not completely fill a square, and that is properly illustrated in the LoS example (you simply cannot move into said square). Horlaci mentions that the bottom of the 'slope of the wall' blocks LoS, but I think of those walls as sheer cliffs, and they are illustrated as slopes merely to show elevation.

Krycheck does make a good point in that if you have clear LoS to all four corners of a square, then you should definitely have LoS to all adjacent corners (though they may have cover).
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Ant Brooks
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GeckoTH wrote:
And in response to Echohawk, the rulebook does mention squares with partial walls, on page 10: "Each square a creature moves into must be a legal square. A legal square cannot be more than half covered by a wall."

Therefore, the rules do allow for walls to not completely fill a square, and that is properly illustrated in the LoS example (you simply cannot move into said square). Horlaci mentions that the bottom of the 'slope of the wall' blocks LoS, but I think of those walls as sheer cliffs, and they are illustrated as slopes merely to show elevation.

I confess that I am extrapolating based on the rules from the earlier D&D Miniatures games here, but my take on that part of the rulebook is that it is clarifying when a square is considered a wall space (one where the illustration shows the square more than half covered by wall), rather than providing for squares which are a mixture of wall and non-wall.

But having said that, both the War Wizard/Shadow Mastiff diagram and the diagram illustrating the dragon moving around a corner seem to imply that Dungeon Command does have squares which aren't completely wall squares nor completely empty squares.

I suspect that this will need to be dealt with by an official FAQ or Errata before we will have a definitive answer.
 
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