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Subject: A few Eagles questions rss

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John Strong
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Having finally gone through all six adventure decks, I can really see the potential of the Eagles as allies! But I do have a question or two about them:

1) There are a few allies that are obviously set up to either defend or attack. However, after exhausting them to commit them to attack or defend, the response has them being discarded from play. My question concerns two cards- Born Aloft attachment and the Meneldor's Flight event. If BA is attached to an Eagle that has to leave play after exhausting to defend let's say, can I exhaust the Eagle for defense, and after it is resolved, discard BA instead and return that Eagle to my hand instead of discarding it?

2) Almost the same type of question concerning the MF event. Can I exhaust an Eagle ally for defense for example, but before discarding it after the defense resolves, can I play the MF event to return that Eagle ally to my hand before discarding it?

Thanks in advance fellow Middle Earth explorers!

edit- Oops... one more question I just thought of. Could I possibly attach BA to Gandalf after he enters play, and then discard BA at the end of the round to return Gandalf to my hand instead of discarding him? Again, thx!
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Duke Of Lizards
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cruehitman wrote:
Having finally gone through all six adventure decks, I can really see the potential of the Eagles as allies! But I do have a question or two about them:

1) There are a few allies that are obviously set up to either defend or attack. However, after exhausting them to commit them to attack or defend, the response has them being discarded from play. My question concerns two cards- Born Aloft attachment and the Meneldor's Flight event. If BA is attached to an Eagle that has to leave play after exhausting to defend let's say, can I exhaust the Eagle for defense, and after it is resolved, discard BA instead and return that Eagle to my hand instead of discarding it?

2) Almost the same type of question concerning the MF event. Can I exhaust an Eagle ally for defense for example, but before discarding it after the defense resolves, can I play the MF event to return that Eagle ally to my hand before discarding it?


No. The discard effects are Forced:, so they trigger before any responses. Thus, you can't save Winged Guardian or Vassal of the Windlord with Born Aloft, nor with Meneldor's Flight. I've never been able to use the latter card effectively. However, see Eagles of the Misty Mountains for a nice combo with these cards leaving play (not to mention Horn of Gondor, Imrahil, etc...)

cruehitman wrote:
edit- Oops... one more question I just thought of. Could I possibly attach BA to Gandalf after he enters play, and then discard BA at the end of the round to return Gandalf to my hand instead of discarding him? Again, thx!


Yes, this is a great use of Born Aloft!
 
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John Strong
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Thanks for the quick response! That sucks that I can't save the allies; however that is awesome about Gandalf! Between the BA event and the Sneak Attack event (if you can get them into your hands of course! ), Gandalf can be a real force to be reckoned with! Love it.
 
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Brother Leon
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So can this card:



bring this guy in:

Spoiler (click to reveal)




and use his ability to keep him in
 
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Andy Mills
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No, Sneak Attack requires you to return Gandalf to your hand.
Plus, why would you want to Sneak in THAT Gandalf during the Refresh phase?
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Boghog
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What's the point? You sneak "unexpected journey" Gandalf - let's say in the quest phase to benefit from his 4 willpower. At the end of that phase he returns to your hand as per Sneak Attack's effect. He will never see a refresh phase, so his forced effect won't apply.
 
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Andy Mills
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Sorry, I interpreted in "keep him in" as "keep him in play", which of course won't happen. Yes, Gandalf's Forced effect won't trigger if he's not in play at the end of the refresh phase.

Otherwise, that's a good use of SA, but it won't keep him in play longer than a phase.
 
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Brother Leon
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what if i bring him in in the refresh phase? the text in the forced effect would take precedence over sa's text wouldn't it. thetiming is simultaneuos; so i get to decide
 
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John Steinbach
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Sneak Attack seems to create a passive condition, and it's a bit unclear just how passive effects interact with forced effects (although forced effects take precedence over responses and player actions, so one might assume that they would also supersede passives).

Still, it doesn't matter in this instance. Say you're right, and Gandalf's text resolves before Sneak Attack's. You raise your threat to keep him in play...and then Sneak Attack returns him to your hand. If Sneak Attack resolves first, Gandalf just goes back to your hand. There's no way he stays in play.
 
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David Morneau
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cruehitman wrote:
That sucks that I can't save the allies;


This is why you need to also have Misty Mountain Eagles in play. They become very powerful after a few other eagle allies have left play....
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"Support of the Eagles" seems like an outstanding combo with either "Winged Guardian" or "Vassal of the Windlord". Because the WG or VotW aren't directly defending or attacking, they don't get discarded if their abilities are borrowed by SotE, correct?
 
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Thanee
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Absolutely.

And the Guardian can still defend, it just costs a Resource to keep him from being discarded afterwards.

Bye
Thanee
 
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Derek Coon
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Don't forget Descendant! Some pesky goblins in play? Sneak Attack Decendant to remove one on entry and another on exit. He can even attack to defend in the meantime. Then, because an Eagle ally has left play you slip the Sneak Attack card face down under your EoMM and gather a resource from your Horn of Gondor.

And you do have Radagast in your deck right?
 
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Andy Mills
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Starhawk77 wrote:
Sneak Attack seems to create a passive condition, and it's a bit unclear just how passive effects interact with forced effects (although forced effects take precedence over responses and player actions, so one might assume that they would also supersede passives).


But Thalin's passive works before the Forced on those pesky crows...
 
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Iain Benson
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Bullroarer Took wrote:
Don't forget Descendant! Some pesky goblins in play? Sneak Attack Decendant to remove one on entry and another on exit. He can even attack to defend in the meantime. Then, because an Eagle ally has left play you slip the Sneak Attack card face down under your EoMM and gather a resource from your Horn of Gondor.


I think you'd have to put the Descendant under EoMM not the sneak attack: "After another Eagle character leaves play, you may attach that card facedown to Eagles of the Misty Mountains"
 
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John Steinbach
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manydills wrote:

But Thalin's passive works before the Forced on those pesky crows...

It happens before the Surge, but that's a keyword rather than a forced effect. Unless you were referring to the forced effect that shuffles the Crows back into the deck (which, as far as I know, still triggers when they are killed by Thalin). However, it does stand as evidence of a passive effect taking precedence over certain other kinds of effects.

 
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Derek Coon
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iain_benson wrote:
Bullroarer Took wrote:
Don't forget Descendant! Some pesky goblins in play? Sneak Attack Decendant to remove one on entry and another on exit. He can even attack to defend in the meantime. Then, because an Eagle ally has left play you slip the Sneak Attack card face down under your EoMM and gather a resource from your Horn of Gondor.


I think you'd have to put the Descendant under EoMM not the sneak attack: "After another Eagle character leaves play, you may attach that card facedown to Eagles of the Misty Mountains"

Generally yes, but when you play an eagle via Sneak Attack that Eagle has left play. I suppose strictly reading the card means that you won't gain the bonus to EoMM, but I use the Sneak Attack card in lieu of the Eagle card ( which I've put back in my hand).
 
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Iain Benson
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Bullroarer Took wrote:
iain_benson wrote:
Bullroarer Took wrote:
Don't forget Descendant! Some pesky goblins in play? Sneak Attack Decendant to remove one on entry and another on exit. He can even attack to defend in the meantime. Then, because an Eagle ally has left play you slip the Sneak Attack card face down under your EoMM and gather a resource from your Horn of Gondor.


I think you'd have to put the Descendant under EoMM not the sneak attack: "After another Eagle character leaves play, you may attach that card facedown to Eagles of the Misty Mountains"

Generally yes, but when you play an eagle via Sneak Attack that Eagle has left play. I suppose strictly reading the card means that you won't gain the bonus to EoMM, but I use the Sneak Attack card in lieu of the Eagle card ( which I've put back in my hand).


Sneak attack states "if that ally is still in play return it to your hand", so yes, descendant leaves play and returns to your hand, but it's that card that should be placed under EoMM. You are in effect doubling the eagle card, placing it both in your hand and under EoMM. It's got to be one or the other, not both ... This isn't quantum physics; it's not Schroedinger's Eagle
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Nikos II
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Sorry for posting to an old thread but this looked like the right thread for my question ...

Vassal of the Windlord has "Forced: After an attack in which Vassal of the Windlord attacked resolves, discard Vassal of the Windlord from play."

From what I understand, you can't respond to forced effects.

So am I able to activate these responses?

Eagle of the Misty Mountains has "Response: After another Eagle character leaves play, you may attach that card facedown to Eagles of the Misty Mountains."

Horn of Gondor has "Response: After a character leaves play, add 1 resource to attached Hero's pool."


I'm thinking yes? Maybe the forced prevents you from stopping the discard but you can still respond to it? I'm confused!soblue
 
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James Ludlow
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Traekos77 wrote:
Sorry for posting to an old thread but this looked like the right thread for my question ...

Vassal of the Windlord has "Forced: After an attack in which Vassal of the Windlord attacked resolves, discard Vassal of the Windlord from play."

From what I understand, you can't respond to forced effects.


Sure you can. You're probably thinking of the rule where both a forced and a response effect are activated against the same trigger. In that case, the forced effect goes first.

Both of your examples are legal plays.

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Nikos Pesmatzoglou
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In the FAQ, Rule Clarification 1.02 it has an example with Beorn and Sneak Attack which seems to me exact as the Winged Guardian and Sneak Attack. In the FAQ example Beorn is returned to the players hand ... why isn't this the case with Winged Guardian ?
 
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James Ludlow
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Winged Guardian's effect is after the attack, not at the end of the combat phase. Beorn and Sneak Attack are both checked at the end of the phase.
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Nikos Pesmatzoglou
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ok, thx
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