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Subject: Does Snare! need to be rezzed in order to affect the Runner? rss

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Micheal Keane
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Another issue where there might be a subtle but important difference from classic NR, especially because of the subtle but important differences in how cards are accessed now.

I ask mainly because Snare! doesn't have the "even if it's not installed" language that comparable cards in classic NR had. It sort of implies that it can be triggered no matter where it's accessed (aside from Archives) and regardless of its rez state.
 
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Jeff Lindsay
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Yes. It can be triggered anywhere it's accessed aside from archives, regardless of rez state. If the runner accesses it in R&D or HQ, corp pays 4, boom. If they access a server it's installed on, corp pays 4, boom.

If you had to rez it before they've run for it to trigger there would be no point to ever installing it. You can't install an agenda or another asset in that same server, so the runner would just never go there. It triggers when they access the card, which if they run on the server and access any agendas/upgrades/assets installed happens if it's rezzed or not.
 
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Mat Nowak
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Doesn't Snare! have a rez cost of zero? Making this kind of a moot point?
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B C Z
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Rez Cost $0.

Card text states an effect when the Runner accesses the card.

Golden Rule says card text supercedes rule book.

QED.
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Bob Smithy

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In my NBN deck, I'm adding 3 Scorched Earth's, and this.
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Micheal Keane
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It's a relevant point for potential cards down the line.

Speed Trap from classic allows a runner to jack out in response to a Node/Upgrade being rezzed. If you have to rez, then the Runner jacks out, which is sort of the point of course.

What I'm mainly thinking of is if there's a new Namatoki Plaza down the line. If you had an agenda and Snare! together in the same fort. Do you have to rez Snare for it to take effect?

In classic, you'd rez it, the runner would deal with the effects of accessing the cards, score the agenda, trash cards, etc and only at the end, if the runner survived, does he win the game.

In Android, necause the Runner picks a card and resolves *all* the decisions with that card and scores before moving onto the next one, the order is much more important now. If Snare needs to be rezzed, then the runner chooses the card that's not Snare, scores it and potentially wins the game before getting to Snare. If Snare doesn't need to be rezzed, the Runner flips a coin, potentially picks Snare and dies before getting to the agenda.
 
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Theo Seretis
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Hdnggrnchrg wrote:
In my NBN deck, I'm adding 3 Scorched Earth's, and this.


You still have 1 influence left, so why not run an Aggressive Negotiation as well?
 
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Micheal Keane
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Hdnggrnchrg wrote:
In my NBN deck, I'm adding 3 Scorched Earth's, and this.


1 x Scorched Earth (4)
3 x Aggressive Negotiations (1)
1 x Archived Memory (2)
3 x Snare! (2)
=
15 influence
 
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Bob Smithy

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hunk wrote:
Hdnggrnchrg wrote:
In my NBN deck, I'm adding 3 Scorched Earth's, and this.


You still have 1 influence left, so why not run an Aggressive Negotiation as well?


Assuming I like ALL (not likely, but better worst case) of the NBN and neutural cards...
 
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Bob Smithy

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ffaristocrat wrote:
Hdnggrnchrg wrote:
In my NBN deck, I'm adding 3 Scorched Earth's, and this.


1 x Scorched Earth (4)
3 x Aggressive Negotiations (1)
1 x Archived Memory (2)
3 x Snare! (2)
=
15 influence


Scorched earth is definantly a x2, and that with x2 snare gives x3 aggressive negotiations to boot. Better 5 of the same cards than 5 different, or so I say :/
 
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Micheal Keane
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byronczimmer wrote:


Rez Cost $0.

Card text states an effect when the Runner accesses the card.

Golden Rule says card text supercedes rule book.

QED.


But because the card is inactive, the trigger text "when the Runner accesses Snare!" wouldn't be... active. That's why Setup! had the "even if it's not installed" wording.

I mean, *I* get the intended effect, but I think the text might need an official ruling to spell it out for the more literal people. And the rezzing issue should probably be cleared up so that the interactions with cards down the line are certain.
 
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Jeff Lindsay
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If the card's text required it to be active it would never work as you interpret it. Cards in HQ and R&D are inactive as well.

When accessed abilities function whether the card is active or not. I understand how this might be confusing, but it's essentially a case of specific card wording > general rule. This card would not function otherwise as it's almost always going to be inactive when the runner accesses it.
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Micheal Keane
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Hrrrmmm wrote:
If the card's text required it to be active it would never work as you interpret it. Cards in HQ and R&D are inactive as well.

When accessed abilities function whether the card is active or not. I understand how this might be confusing, but it's essentially a case of specific card wording > general rule. This card would not function otherwise as it's almost always going to be inactive when the runner accesses it.


Exactly. That's why I'm asking if it needs to be rezzed in order to have an effect because unrezzed cards are inactive too.
 
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Jeff Lindsay
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It doesn't need to be.
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Gunnarr Sigurd
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I agree with ffaristocrat here.

According to the rules, the abilities of inactive cards have no effect.

While the Snare card strongly implies it works even when it not active, it doesn't spell that outright -> potentially a source of confusion.

I understand the designer's intent with this card, but I think there will be people who won't. And I think the game being more accessible to new players is always a plus.

IMO, "this is what happens because the card says so" is better design that "this is what happens because otherwise this card makes no sense". So the card should have the text "Special: this card's abilities are always active". Or something to that effect, the way it was done in original Netrunner.
 
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Enon Sci
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gsigurd wrote:
I agree with ffaristocrat here.

According to the rules, the abilities of inactive cards have no effect.

While the Snare card strongly implies it works even when it not active, it doesn't spell that outright -> potentially a source of confusion.

I understand the designer's intent with this card, but I think there will be people who won't. And I think the game being more accessible to new players is always a plus.

IMO, "this is what happens because the card says so" is better design that "this is what happens because otherwise this card makes no sense". So the card should have the text "Special: this card's abilities are always active". Or something to that effect, the way it was done in original Netrunner.


Read the opening txt on the card. How could this ever work from R&D with ffaristocrat's interpretation?
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Micheal Keane
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Anarchosyn wrote:
Read the opening txt on the card. How could this ever work from R&D with ffaristocrat's interpretation?


That's the problem I'm trying to point out with the wording.
 
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Jeff Lindsay
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Just think of it this way:
When the runner accesses a card it is active until accessing that card is resolved.
 
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ffaristocrat wrote:
In classic, you'd rez it, the runner would deal with the effects of accessing the cards, score the agenda, trash cards, etc and only at the end, if the runner survived, does he win the game.

In Android, necause the Runner picks a card and resolves *all* the decisions with that card and scores before moving onto the next one, the order is much more important now. If Snare needs to be rezzed, then the runner chooses the card that's not Snare, scores it and potentially wins the game before getting to Snare. If Snare doesn't need to be rezzed, the Runner flips a coin, potentially picks Snare and dies before getting to the agenda.


This is one of many reasons I think the Runner should have to deal with all effects of their Run and shouldn't be able to claim victory until they jack out - alive.
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Ben Finkel
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In this case it feels thematically to me that the Runner, having broken through the ICE, fortunately finds the data he needs to take down the corporation and jacks out before pushing his luck any further. Why would he stay longer than his goals require, when such traps are about?
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Chris Ahrendt
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Azeltir wrote:
In this case it feels thematically to me that the Runner, having broken through the ICE, fortunately finds the data he needs to take down the corporation and jacks out before pushing his luck any further. Why would he stay longer than his goals require, when such traps are about?


But we could apply this logic to any run. If the first card accessed was an agenda, just jack out and not touch anything else since most likely anything else in the server is going to be bad news for the runner. If I understand the rules correctly, this isn't allowed--the runner must access everything in the server... unless they just happened to grab an agenda that gives them enough points to win.

This seems a bit inconsistent, and that's why I tend agree with Byron's assessment.
 
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Micheal Keane
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I don't mind the instant game winning condition actually.

The runner got what he or she needed to foil the Corp's plans. They won.

Whether they survived to cash in on the glory or died a martyr who lives on in the imaginations of hackers everywhere is besides the point.
 
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Enon Sci
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ffaristocrat wrote:

Whether they survived to cash in on the glory or died a martyr who lives on in the imaginations of hackers everywhere is besides the point.


But if they died in the server, how would anybody know of their exploits to martyr them?

Heh, just teasing, this is could be tweaked to "the Runner trashed the nefarious plot of the Corp, forever protecting the world from..." and it would again make perfect sense. This is the problem I have with thematic arguments -- the can often resolve themselves if placed in a slightly different light.

 
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Dennis Gadgaard
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I don't see any interpretation issues with Snare; it's quite obvious to me that the intention of the card is that when the runner accesses Snare, the corp gets an opportunity to pay 4 to do Bad Stuff.
Doesn't matter if the runner accesses it from a server, HQ or R&D.
Can't see much reason to rez it, ever.

I expect FFG will put the "no need to be rezzed" blurb in an erratalist, since they most likely too saw it as obvious and didn't catch the omission during proofreading.
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Jeremy Owens
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Pg 30: "Accessing: The act of a Runner looking at a Corporation card as part of a successful run, which he can then trash or steal."

Pg 5: "The Golden Rule: If the text of a card directly conflicts with the rules in this book, the card text takes precedence."

These two aspects in conjunction with the card should make this all obvious, but you can also throw in some good ol common sense.

Do we really need to ask for more text on cards if it is already pretty obvious how they work?
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