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Subject: When will this be available in the U.S. rss

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Joel Weeks
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I've played the prototype. I only have 2 deduction games, Sleuth by Sid Sackson and Timbucktu by Henn. I think this will be my 3rd.
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James Ramey
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I'm right there with you, Joel. I'm anxiously awaiting more information on P.I., and I know I'll add it to my collection immediately, sight unseen.
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Joel Weeks
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cool. I also got to try Mythotopia which is a 4 player version of Few Acres of Snow. I wish they were both coming out this year, for I want them both badly.
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TS S. Fulk
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joelbear wrote:
cool. I also got to try Mythotopia which is a 4 player version of Few Acres of Snow. I wish they were both coming out this year, for I want them both badly.


I'd rather that "Mythotopia" gets proper play testing. One Treefrog game a year is fine by me (especially since there are plenty of old Warfrog games to hunt down and buy).

Anything comments on game play for these two games?
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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tssfulk wrote:
One Treefrog game a year is fine by me (especially since there are plenty of old Warfrog games to hunt down and buy).


Not for me, but I have an interest in Treefrog making money. But then so should you. Treefrog needs to make money in order to keep Martin designing games, and one game a year won't do that in any likely scenario.
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Cactus god
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Dearlove wrote:
tssfulk wrote:
One Treefrog game a year is fine by me (especially since there are plenty of old Warfrog games to hunt down and buy).


Not for me, but I have an interest in Treefrog making money. But then so should you. Treefrog needs to make money in order to keep Martin designing games, and one game a year won't do that in any likely scenario.



This seems like a hostile post for no reason at all lol. I think we all want Treefrog to make money but its not up to us, after we buy a single copy of the game that's about all we can do besides promoting the game to other folks.


Anyway, I feel like there is a severe lack of fun deduction board games and I am very interested to see how this game turns out. I wonder if it will be at gencon.
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TS S. Fulk
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Dearlove wrote:
tssfulk wrote:
One Treefrog game a year is fine by me (especially since there are plenty of old Warfrog games to hunt down and buy).


Not for me, but I have an interest in Treefrog making money. But then so should you. Treefrog needs to make money in order to keep Martin designing games, and one game a year won't do that in any likely scenario.


If that one game sells like Munchkin, Dominion, 7 Wonders, etc. it will. I'm hoping that he'll make a killing on Discworld, Doctor Who and the Hobbit, so that he can make sure things like the Halifax Hammer don't happen again.
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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Cactusgod wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
[q="tssfulk"]One Treefrog game a year is fine by me (especially since there are plenty of old Warfrog games to hunt down and buy).


Not for me, but I have an interest in Treefrog making money. But then so should you. Treefrog needs to make money in order to keep Martin designing games, and one game a year won't do that in any likely scenario.



This seems like a hostile post for no reason at all

However the person to whom I replied thumbed my reply, so perhaps the hostility you perceive may not be there.
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TS S. Fulk
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Dearlove wrote:
Cactusgod wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
[q="tssfulk"]One Treefrog game a year is fine by me (especially since there are plenty of old Warfrog games to hunt down and buy).


Not for me, but I have an interest in Treefrog making money. But then so should you. Treefrog needs to make money in order to keep Martin designing games, and one game a year won't do that in any likely scenario.



This seems like a hostile post for no reason at all

However the person to whom I replied thumbed my reply, so perhaps the hostility you perceive may not be there.


 
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Richard Dewsbery
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I neither perceived, nor deduced, any hostility.

I might be capable of deducing the likely US availability of PI, but we'd probably be in the territory of my body washing up on the waterfront somewhere if I said anything about it.
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sam newman

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so how does the game play? im interested but theres practically no information on it yet.
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Denis Begin
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Mastermind mixed with Clue is how it was described to me. I have a copy of the prototype but have not played myself yet :(
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Ethidium Bromide
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So you have played the prototype.
How this one is different to Sleuth or other deduction games?
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Don D.
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joelbear wrote:
I've played the prototype. I only have 2 deduction games, Sleuth by Sid Sackson and Timbucktu by Henn. I think this will be my 3rd.


Joel, I think you should give Black Vienna a try. It is a complete and total upgrade of Sleuth in virtually every meaningful way. There is a great PnP option available. P.I. could be your 4th deduction game
 
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David desJardins
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dond80 wrote:
Joel, I think you should give Black Vienna a try. It is a complete and total upgrade of Sleuth in virtually every meaningful way.


Except that in Black Vienna, sometimes people just stop asking you questions and then you can't really win or even do anything. (You can just make a low-probability guess if you're never going to get any more information, so it's not quite true that you can't win.) In Sleuth, everyone gets essentially the same number of questions.
 
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Don D.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
dond80 wrote:
Joel, I think you should give Black Vienna a try. It is a complete and total upgrade of Sleuth in virtually every meaningful way.


Except that in Black Vienna, sometimes people just stop asking you questions and then you can't really win or even do anything. (You can just make a low-probability guess if you're never going to get any more information, so it's not quite true that you can't win.) In Sleuth, everyone gets essentially the same number of questions.


I am a bit confused. Without making certain assumptions, you are not getting any information when someone asks you a question in Black Vienna. In fact, you prefer they never do ask you questions. We play with a house rule that prevents people from picking on you disproportionately that ensures a fairly even field with information. The major problem with sleuth is the multiple variables in the cards give players an advantage or disadvantage relative to the others based on the count of each particular type of card in their starting hand.
 
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David desJardins
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dond80 wrote:
I am a bit confused. Without making certain assumptions, you are not getting any information when someone asks you a question in Black Vienna. In fact, you prefer they never do ask you questions.


Black Vienna has two problems. First is that you have no secret information except for your cards. If everyone else knows what you hold (which can often happen) then you have no way to win except to make a low-probability guess. The second problem is that you don't get to ask questions to control what information players get, unless you are asked a question yourself. So you also can't do anything strategic if players aren't asking you questions, you just have to hope that you get the information that's useful to you.

Sleuth doesn't have either of those problems.

It sounds like you're not playing Black Vienna as published, you're playing some variant. Maybe it addresses both of these problems. But it's clear that, as published, Black Vienna isn't better than Sleuth in every way. Of course some people might still like it better.
 
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Don D.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
dond80 wrote:
I am a bit confused. Without making certain assumptions, you are not getting any information when someone asks you a question in Black Vienna. In fact, you prefer they never do ask you questions.


Black Vienna has two problems. First is that you have no secret information except for your cards. If everyone else knows what you hold (which can often happen) then you have no way to win except to make a low-probability guess. The second problem is that you don't get to ask questions to control what information players get, unless you are asked a question yourself. So you also can't do anything strategic if players aren't asking you questions, you just have to hope that you get the information that's useful to you.

Sleuth doesn't have either of those problems.

It sounds like you're not playing Black Vienna as published, you're playing some variant. Maybe it addresses both of these problems. But it's clear that, as published, Black Vienna isn't better than Sleuth in every way. Of course some people might still like it better.


I guess I'm not playing by the actual black Vienna rules because what you describe sounds totally different to me!
 
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David desJardins
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dond80 wrote:
I guess I'm not playing by the actual black Vienna rules because what you describe sounds totally different to me!


You already said you're playing with house rules.

In the published version of Black Vienna, one thing that almost always happens is that at least one player has all of their cards revealed by questions, so that everyone else knows what their hidden cards are. Once your hidden cards are known to everyone else, you have no information that every other player doesn't have, therefore it's impossible for you to ever deduce what the secret cards are, unless everyone else can also deduce the same thing. So you can only win by guessing.

Everyone I know finds these things to be true. Of course, there are other more positive aspects to the game. Maybe your house rules somehow eliminate this problem.

In Sleuth, everyone gets different information. When you ask a question, you get to see the actual cards that some other player holds, whereas the other players just learn the number of them. So each player knows different things than everyone else (and things that no one else can learn from them). It's a fundamental difference.
 
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Don D.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
dond80 wrote:
I guess I'm not playing by the actual black Vienna rules because what you describe sounds totally different to me!


You already said you're playing with house rules.

In the published version of Black Vienna, one thing that almost always happens is that at least one player has all of their cards revealed by questions, so that everyone else knows what their hidden cards are. Once your hidden cards are known to everyone else, you have no information that every other player doesn't have, therefore it's impossible for you to ever deduce what the secret cards are, unless everyone else can also deduce the same thing. So you can only win by guessing.

Everyone I know finds these things to be true. Of course, there are other more positive aspects to the game. Maybe your house rules somehow eliminate this problem.

In Sleuth, everyone gets different information. When you ask a question, you get to see the actual cards that some other player holds, whereas the other players just learn the number of them. So each player knows different things than everyone else (and things that no one else can learn from them). It's a fundamental difference.


We've found the situation you describe to be very rare. Everyone is getting different bits of information in black Vienna due to the different bits of information they have In their hand. I can't recall a game in which everyone had figured out the same person's hand prior to a player winning. Ive used the pnp black Vienna and only know the rules through being passed down orally so I can't really comment on what we do differently aside from my one house rule. That rule is everyone gets a bonus chip whenever asked a question, and whenever someone accumulates four bonus chips they immediately get to take a turn asking someone else a question. That's just to mitigate the ganging up on one player effect.
 
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David desJardins
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I would say that in almost every game of Black Vienna I've played, there's at least one player by the end of the game whose entire hand is known by everyone, or maybe there's just a slight ambiguity where most but not all of the players can determine what that one player holds. This often happens randomly to one player while other players' hands (and the hidden cards) are still quite uncertain.

Some questions randomly reveal much more information than others. If you get asked a couple of questions that randomly reveal a lot about your hand, it can very quickly become clear what you hold. And the questions asked of other players can also focus in on clearing up the remaining ambiguities about your hand, which, if they find the cards that you might or might not hold, eliminate that remaining uncertainty without necessarily asking you the final questions.
 
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Don D.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I would say that in almost every game of Black Vienna I've played, there's at least one player by the end of the game whose entire hand is known by everyone, or maybe there's just a slight ambiguity where most but not all of the players can determine what that one player holds. This often happens randomly to one player while other players' hands (and the hidden cards) are still quite uncertain.

Some questions randomly reveal much more information than others. If you get asked a couple of questions that randomly reveal a lot about your hand, it can very quickly become clear what you hold. And the questions asked of other players can also focus in on clearing up the remaining ambiguities about your hand, which, if they find the cards that you might or might not hold, eliminate that remaining uncertainty without necessarily asking you the final questions.


My guess is that you describe an issue related to numbers of players. I typically play with three, which may be the best number.
 
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David desJardins
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dond80 wrote:
My guess is that you describe an issue related to numbers of players. I typically play with three, which may be the best number.


That makes sense. It's probably better with three players---by the time one player's hand is completely known, and of course if you're a second player who knows your entire hand, you need only a couple of questions and then the game is over, one way or another. I think I've generally played with four or five. I don't tend to look to deduction games with only three players, but it might be a good idea in this case.
 
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Don D.
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I just read rules posted to the geek. It seems we've been using another house rule...turn order is always clockwise. I can definitely see the problems you describe happening with the rules as written- that just seems a wonky way of doing it. So the two house rules and number of players I use (clockwise with bonuses for getting picked on too much) diminish that problem you describe. I wouldn't think so highly of the game if that problem was happening all the time. I think it's happened 10% of the time in my group with our (apparently) significantly revised rules.
 
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David desJardins
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dond80 wrote:
I just read rules posted to the geek. It seems we've been using another house rule...turn order is always clockwise.


Oh, wow. That's a huge difference. That makes the game considerably more like Sleuth. I still think there's an important difference (which is positive for Sleuth) in that in Sleuth you can get private information when you ask a question, while in Black Vienna all of the information that you get goes to everyone else also. But the games are much more similar with your variant.
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