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Subject: Grenades? rss

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T.W. McLain 3
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Played the first mission last night with the next door neighbor. During his turn as the APE player, he used a grenade, and promptly wiped out nearly every zombie I had on the board. I don't know about the rest of the missions,mbut grenades seems FAR to powerful, particularly if they have an unlimited quantity. Anyone else encounter this? Do the Germans eventually level out a bit more in later scenarios?

I'm thinking of house ruling that APES only get one grenade per game for the sake of balance. Any thoughts?
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The first mission is a cakewalk for the APEs if they don't do dumb stuff.

It's basically a reduced rules learning scenario.

Grenades are only powerful if you cluster up zombies somewhere that the APEs can throw to. In most of the later scenarios, that doesn't happen. You'll have more board to work with, and the stronger German units will come into play.

Yes, the Germans become more competitive. They're very strong in many of the low numbered missions, where speed is important.

My basic thought is "never play scenario 1 more than once, unless you're teaching someone else the game". If you are teaching a lot of people, get used to losing as the zombies. It's normal.
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T.W. McLain 3
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Thanks Not:

I also just found after picking up the SNAFU ruleset that I was calculating the length of the grenade pattern wrong- it is a 3x3 grind of nine. I was counting out nine squares from every direction the grenade was lobbed to which essentially tripled the range in our case. Big difference.
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john roberts
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Wow!

As That's not my name. mentioned, mission 1 is all about teaching the SWD player Zombie Management. Be sure to switch sides after playing!
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Steampunk wrote:
Thanks Not:

I also just found after picking up the SNAFU ruleset that I was calculating the length of the grenade pattern wrong- it is a 3x3 grind of nine. I was counting out nine squares from every direction the grenade was lobbed to which essentially tripled the range in our case. Big difference.


Whoa, yeah. Grenades are powerful, but not board-clearing like that. Because of the twists and turns, it's rare to really get more than a handful of zombies in the range of one. They can be useful, though.

But wait until you see the flamethrower, that's a zombie destruction machine...

I wouldn't even bother switching sides for Mission 1, I'd just plow on to Mission 2. The APEs will take their lumps in the next few missions, when the speed of the Germans can really shine. Switching sides from time to time is a good idea, but Mission 1 is for rules learning, and not much more. It's pointless to repeat it just so someone else can take the beating.
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john roberts
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Not Sure wrote:
but Mission 1 is for rules learning, and not much more. It's pointless to repeat it just so someone else can take the beating.


You don't think the exercise of trying to squeeze 6 sturmzombies through what amounts to one valid entry point is worthwhile for future missions? Playing SWD on mission 1 is what really taught me about resource management and how many sturmzombies I could feasibly take in later missions.

I would recommend playing mission 1 as the SWD at least once and approaching it as I had mentioned earlier: a crash course in zombie management.
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Not especially, no. I think it's well established by about turn 2, and the APE player should see it as fairly obvious as well.

The big problem in Mission 1 is that it doesn't show the SWD player how to actually attack with zombies, because there are very few places where you can get that second or third zombie in to stack dice. Lots of long hallways for reaction fire, and even if you get an APE to jam, you can't surround him when you're four squares away in a hallway.

As long as the APE player has a basic notion of tactics for a minis game like this, it's pretty hard to give him a rough time as the zombies.

Depending on the mission, I might still take six zombies, but only if I plan to actually surround and kill an APE with them. In order to do that, you need enough space to get multiple adjacent HtH attacks in the same round. Some board layouts just aren't good for that, and the half-board of Mission 1 is one of the worst.

It's just a much more interesting game with the other units in play, especially for the SWD player. I learned a lot more from later missions than I did from Mission 1, especially about how to really use zombies.
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Fabio Calzolari
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I'm joining to this thread 'cause i've questions about the grenades:
yesterday we played Scenario 2.
An APE managed to start close enough to Ilsa (but not in LOS) and spent all possible actions (his own + all CPs) to throw grenades in the square next to her. She was the last SWD figure, so the L7 won the match.

Are really grenades infinite? And allowed to throw any number per turn?
'cause, as you don't have to be in LOS, and given also the +1 they get vs Fortitude, they're much better than shooting.
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Fabio Calzolari
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... what a silence...
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Dan Has
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parduz wrote:
An APE managed to start close enough to Ilsa (but not in LOS) and spent all possible actions (his own + all CPs) to throw grenades in the square next to her. She was the last SWD figure, so the L7 won the match.

Are really grenades infinite? And allowed to throw any number per turn?
'cause, as you don't have to be in LOS, and given also the +1 they get vs Fortitude, they're much better than shooting.


As far as I understand the rules, yes this is allowed and grenades are infinite. The best thing to do is not stand just around the corner but one square further if you want to avoid this.
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john roberts
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Or bait 'em with a worthless sturmzombie as an ap soak. Remember, it's 2ap to toss a grenade. Also remember, it only has a 6 square range. Last thing to remember: Ilsa has grenades, too.
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So does Gretel. They're probably more effective than her SMG, because she doesn't get to re-roll like Ilsa does.

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john roberts
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ah but Gretel wasn't there. And based on my own experience: You get effectively 4 dice for 2ap worth of SMG shooting vs one die with a +1 mod for a grenade toss. If they're just out of LOS or you can catch 2, grenades win. But Gretel can potentially kill an unwounded ape with that SMG, something she can't do with grenades.

It's all situational! Unfortunately, my regular opponents rarely clump their APEs together.
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Fabio Calzolari
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robertsjf wrote:
If they're just out of LOS or you can catch 2, grenades win.

I'd add "or you don't want to risk reaction fire," before "grenades win".

Thanks to all.

To me, while i just have 3 or 4 plays under my belt, unlimited grenades seems overpowered, anti-thematic and, in a word, wrong.

I'd think to houserule that each figure can throw 1 grenade only per activation... do you think this will unbalance too much the game?

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parduz wrote:

I'd think to houserule that each figure can throw 1 grenade only per activation... do you think this will unbalance too much the game?



How many grenades did the APE throw in your scenario? APEs normally have only 3AP, plus whatever CP they keep from bidding. If the SWD player underbid in a tactical situation like that, I'd say that's their major mistake.

You could limit it, of course. But I'd guess what you're seeing is a pretty rare situation. If some APE throws four grenades because they have a big pile of CP, there's not enough pressure happening somewhere on the board.

I doubt you'll break the game, though. Do whatever seems right.
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Fabio Calzolari
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Not Sure wrote:
parduz wrote:

I'd think to houserule that each figure can throw 1 grenade only per activation... do you think this will unbalance too much the game?


How many grenades did the APE throw in your scenario?

If i remember well, 5, more or less.

Not Sure wrote:
APEs normally have only 3AP, plus whatever CP they keep from bidding. If the SWD player underbid in a tactical situation like that, I'd say that's their major mistake.

The player took that option that he "win" the bid once per game.

Not Sure wrote:
If some APE throws four grenades because they have a big pile of CP, there's not enough pressure happening somewhere on the board.

This could be.... i just don't see how to keep them under pressure in scenario 2: they have to seal the doors, there's not a limit in number of turns, and once they're on the long "corridor" from where they exit, they have Reaction Fire on almost every way.
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john roberts
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did you swap sides and run it the other direction? If both of you, playing as allies, find grenades too powerful then yes, houserule it.


Also, what do you mean by: "or you don't want to risk reaction fire,"?
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Fabio Calzolari
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I mean that staying out if sight (so not giving to the enemy the chances to fire back at me EACH shot i fire) is another element to say "grenades win"
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