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Subject: Some Misspelled Turkish Cities rss

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Eren Koyunoglu
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There are some misspelled Turkish cities in the game. I will list the correct ones if anybody is interested:

Eskidor = Probably Eskişehir according to the location. Never heard of a Eskidor and checked the internet.

Erzerum = Erzurum

Erzingan = Erzincan (It is pronounced as Erzingan so thats the reason it might be written as it is.

Cana Kale = Çanakkale

Adaparazi = Adapazarı

and lastly Constantinople = It is Istanbul since the Ottoman times rather than the Byzantine Constantinople.
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Peter Walsh
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I'm sure you're correct, but I think some of the choices for the game are based on names and spellings that were contemporary among Western Europeans (esp. the British) during World War I. For example, it was not uncommon to see Istanbul called Constantinople even after it's capture by the Ottomans. Old habits must have died a slow difficult death I suppose.
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Eren Koyunoglu
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I can see the point for Constantinople. It can be fair for Erzerum, Erzingan and Cana Kale as they can be easier to pronounce that way. Adaparazi is a misspelling I am sure. I cant find an Eskidor even in google.
 
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John David Galt
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Quite a few cities on the board have changed their names or spelling since WW1, and not just in Turkey. I'm surprised they didn't put in a glossary. Some examples I noticed right away:

Breslau => Wroclaw
Danzig => Gdansk (after WW2)
Königsberg => Kaliningrad (after WW2)
Vilna => Vilno or Vilnius
Reval => Tallinn (Reval was its Swedish name.)
Erivan => Yerevan

Skopje and Monastir are probably something else now, too; one is in Kosovo and the other is in Macedonia.
 
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Philip Thomas
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jdgalt wrote:
Quite a few cities on the board have changed their names or spelling since WW1, and not just in Turkey. I'm surprised they didn't put in a glossary. Some examples I noticed right away:

Breslau => Wroclaw
Danzig => Gdansk (after WW2)
Königsberg => Kaliningrad (after WW2)
Vilna => Vilno or Vilnius
Reval => Tallinn (Reval was its Swedish name.)
Erivan => Yerevan

Skopje and Monastir are probably something else now, too; one is in Kosovo and the other is in Macedonia.


Skopje is the captital of Macedonia and has not changed its name. Monastir is now Bitola and is also in Macedonia. There are no spaces in Kosovo on the Paths of Glory map.

(on the other, hand the space for Skopje certainly looks like it might be in Kosovo on the POG map. I think the map is distorted for topographical reasons).


Pursuit Of Glory shows Istanbul as Constantinople (Istanbul), but most of the other spaces are named correctly for the time I think- Erzincan with a c etc.
 
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John David Galt
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The boundaries must have been different then.

This article says that Skopje was in Kosovo when the Albanians captured it in 1912:
http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/137287
 
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Kristian Thy
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jdgalt wrote:
The boundaries must have been different then.

This article says that Skopje was in Kosovo when the Albanians captured it in 1912:
http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/137287


That article discusses the Ottoman vilayet of Kosovo, which covered present-day Kosovo and the western part of FYROM. Skopje has never been in what any of the locals would refer to as Kosovo.
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Skopje has never been the capital of Macedonia.

Macedonia is a part of Greece, where its capital is Thessanoliki.

Skopje is the capital of FYROM, as Kristian already very politely corrected.

It's a very hot discussion in the region.

Cheers, Haring
 
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Mark McG
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Haring wrote:
Skopje has never been the capital of Macedonia.

Macedonia is a part of Greece, where its capital is Thessanoliki.

Skopje is the capital of FYROM, as Kristian already very politely corrected.

It's a very hot discussion in the region.

Cheers, Haring


Jeez, a dispute in the Balkans, what a novelty!

Maybe FYROM should buy the name from the Greece, which might solve a problem for them!

Funny in a way, the Ancient Greeks regards the Macedonians as barbarians, and would be horrified to have them called Greeks!
 
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Eren Koyunoglu
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The names I have given for Turkish cities havent been changed before or after the WWI. They have the same names then and now, if there is anybody interested to know.
 
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Charles F.
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ErenKoyunoglu wrote:

and lastly Constantinople = It is Istanbul since the Ottoman times rather than the Byzantine Constantinople.


Nah. It was by no means as clearcut as that.

Constantinople only becomes an anachronistic term after Turkey became a republic. Only in 1930 did Istanbul become the single official name.

Constantinople remained perfectly common in usage. Especially in the West, but also in the East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Istanbul

Personally, I think it's best to go with names most common in English usage at the time portrayed by the game. That's a consistent standard to go by.

So efforts to "correct" names following that convention are quite misplaced.
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Eren Koyunoglu
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Its as you say being official about Istanbul. I meant the other city names. They were not changed like Constantinople. And Adaparazi is Adapazarı its a spelling mistake. Not that anyone would care, I just wanted to correct those in case anyone is interested
 
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Philip Thomas
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Haring wrote:
Skopje has never been the capital of Macedonia.

Macedonia is a part of Greece, where its capital is Thessanoliki.

Skopje is the capital of FYROM, as Kristian already very politely corrected.

It's a very hot discussion in the region.

Cheers, Haring


FYROM=The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

I rest my case.
 
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Kevin Anderson
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So FYROM is not actually Macedonia? And they refer to themselves by that acronym officially?
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A3RKev wrote:
So FYROM is not actually Macedonia? And they refer to themselves by that acronym officially?


That's the name they competed at the Olympics under. It's a mouthful, but there you go.

And having gone to high school with a large number of Macedonians and Greeks the debates over what is Greek and what is Macedonian can get pretty heated. (And that was 20 years ago)
 
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Haring wrote:
Skopje has never been the capital of Macedonia.

Macedonia is a part of Greece, where its capital is Thessanoliki.

Skopje is the capital of FYROM, as Kristian already very politely corrected.

It's a very hot discussion in the region.

Cheers, Haring


FYROM=The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

I rest my case.


It's not quite that simple.
Macedonia by itself refers to a territory in Greece.
Republic of Macedonia now known as FYROM was part of Yugoslavia.
They aren't the same thing, despite a habit of calling the FYROM just Macedonia.
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John David Galt
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"Macedonia" has multiple meanings.

The country wants to call themselves Macedonia.

The Greeks are very offended by this and insist they stick with "FYROM", because (1) "Macedonia" historically refers to a much larger area which is mostly in Greece (the home province of Alexander the Great and his father Philip) and (2) the Greeks still call their part of that province by the same name. (They also assert that they consider the Slavs' use of the name a claim or threat against the Greek province, even though the Slavs deny this.)

As a result the Greeks are putting roadblocks in the way of the country becoming part of the European Union. It's unclear whether this will ever happen.

Kosovo is even more in dispute. About half the EU members still don't accept their independence (and there's talk they may want to unite with Albania, which would tick off ALL their other neighbors). They are still occupied by NATO troops, and it looks like they would be overrun tomorrow if we left.
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Philip Thomas
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A3RKev wrote:
So FYROM is not actually Macedonia? And they refer to themselves by that acronym officially?


There are (at least) two places called Macedonia- FYROM and a Greek province.

This phenomenon (2 places having the same name) is perfectly normal.
 
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Philip Thomas wrote:
A3RKev wrote:
So FYROM is not actually Macedonia? And they refer to themselves by that acronym officially?


There are (at least) two places called Macedonia- FYROM and a Greek province.

This phenomenon (2 places having the same name) is perfectly normal.


Well it's not like a persons name.
The problem is not on what a person is referring to. The problem lies within its official name.
FYROM wants to addopt the name Macedonia as their official name, which (according to the greeks) is not possible, because they want to keep Macedonia a 100% greek name/province.
If that is of any concern to you or other people is a totally different matter.

But if we are talking about placenames and how stuff should be put on a map, we should use the official names/accronyms to make perfectly clear which part of the world we are talking about.

The same goes for The Netherlands, which is often called Holland, even so Holland is only a small part of the Netherlands. You can call it all you want, but you would still be wrong.

Therefor I stated that the capital of Macedonia is Thessanoliki (Or Salonika during WW1), and that Skopje is the capital of FYROM (or a city in Serbia during WW1)

Cheers, Haring
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Kristian Thy
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This is awfully close to veering into RSP territory, but I think we can safely state as fact that Skopje is the capital of the country currently - and provisionally - known as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, which in most places is colloquially called "Macedonia". However, the Greeks don't accept the name of Macedonia for the nation - in their view, Macedonia is a historical entity whose capital was Thessaloniki, as Haring and others said. Indeed, even though the two countries have been negotiating a resolution to this dispute since 1995, they still haven't gotten any further than to refer to themselves in bilaterals as "the Party whose capital is Athens" and "the Party whose capital is Skopje". (Since Greece won't call FYROM either FYROM or Macedonia, FYROM refuses to call Greece Greece. This is business as usual by the time-honoured conventions of sophisticated diplomacy.)

During (well, immediately prior to) the period covered in Paths of Glory, Macedonia had been the battle ground for a number of insurrections against Ottoman rule. However, while the insurgents agreed that they didn't want to be ruled by the Turks, they also fought among themselves over whether the region should fall under Greek or Bulgarian dominance.

Oodles of interesting (and sad) reading here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Struggle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedon...
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Mark McG
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So whilst we are here, let's give a big nod to the upcoming centenary of the 1st Balkan War in October.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_War_(1912%E2%80%9313)

and next year's centenary of the 2nd Balkan War (which was also a fight about Macedonia, but more about the territorial ownership than the name) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Balkan_War

The eventual outcome being that Serbia became Russia's main Slav ally in the Balkans, and thus trouble in Serbia leads to global war. Such is this Path to Glory.
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Philip Thomas
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The Greeks made no objection when FYROM was YROM...
Of course, the historical capital of ancient Macedonia was Pella, not Salonika.

Its like Boston, England and Boston, New England, except no one feels the need to hold a conference on that duplication.

 
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I await the debates that may arise from Mr. Koyunoglu getting ahold of the Pursuit map!
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Eren Koyunoglu
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I am planning to arise some debates in the rules section. There is something which doesnt click with me. Come debate there please laugh

Eren
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