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Subject: Large commanded stack attacking a large uncommanded stack rss

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Steve Carter
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OK, now that I have the AE thing sorted out, I have a follow-up question.

Same scenario: 11 uncommanded American SPs in Boston attacked by 15+ commanded British SPs.
Only 3 American SPs may participate in the battle.
Odds are 5-1, regardless of how many other British units are in the hex.
Result is 1/2 DE.
How many American units are lost? Since only 3 SPs were "defending" (the others were not participating), would 1/2 of those 3 SPs be eliminated?
If so, would a "fresh" set of 3SPs be available for the second round?
And then another "fresh" set of 3SPs for the third round?
Etc, etc.

This situation has never arisen before, so I want to make sure that I understand the mechanics.

Thanks!


Then for the second round, it would till 15-3 for a 5-1, even though 9 American SPs are in the hex?
 
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Darrell Pavitt
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I assume you are using the expanded (3rd edit.) rules.

The way I read it, the answers are yes, yes and yes.

Don't forget the -1 drm for uncommanded forces, and that the tactics matrix includes results that end the combat in that hex after the current round (shaded results, NC results and NE results).

The "attacker has the option to continue" paragraph (III/3) fails to mention the shaded results (III/2/D)
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Steve Carter
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nyhotep wrote:
I assume you are using the expanded (3rd edit.) rules.

The way I read it, the answers are yes, yes and yes.

Don't forget the -1 drm for uncommanded forces, and that the tactics matrix includes results that end the combat in that hex after the current round (shaded results, NC results and NE results).

The "attacker has the option to continue" paragraph (III/3) fails to mention the shaded results (III/2/D)

Darrell,

Thanks for the response. Yes, we are playing with the 3rd edition rules. I have considered the Tactical Results Matrix. As long as the British continue to select the "Frontal Assault" Tactical card, and accept a -2 DRM for each die roll (the British commander has a '2' combat modifier), it can continue to eliminate a few SPs each round.

However, the retreat rule states:

If all controlled SPs in the round were eliminated but friendly SPs remain in the hex, the entire friendly force retreats together one hex.

So does that mean that there is no combat at all, since there are no controlled SPs in the hex? If so, then any time all the leaders are removed from a hex, all the SPs remaining are impervious to attack. That seems silly.

But with no controlled SPs in the hex, at what point could the remaining SPs be allowed to retreat? This rule seems to be independent of the tactical cards.

I am still confused.
 
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Doug Pratto
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How many American units are lost? Since only 3 SPs were "defending" (the others were not participating), would 1/2 of those 3 SPs be eliminated?

Yes. Half rounded up, so 2 SPs eliminated.

If so, would a "fresh" set of 3SPs be available for the second round, and then another "fresh" set of 3SPs for the third round etc, etc?

Yes. Each round of combat begins with step 2. of the Combat Procedure wherein step C. requires each side to recalculate its controlled SPs.

Then for the second round, it would till 15-3 for a 5-1, even though 9 American SPs are in the hex?

Yes. Same reason as above.

So does that mean that there is no combat at all, since there are no controlled SPs in the hex?

Under rule 2.G. of the Combat Procedure, the defender can only retreat if all controlled SPs are eliminated in a single Round. Combat has already begun by the time you get to this step and since (in your example) there are no controlled SPs to begin with, the combat would result in an automatic DE.
 
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Darrell Pavitt
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Quote:
If all controlled SPs in the round were eliminated but friendly SPs remain in the hex, the entire friendly force retreats together one hex.


I would read that as "if there are no controlled SP remaining after a round of combat, all remaining (uncontrolled) SP retreat together one hex".

In other words, a large uncontrolled force must always retreat after a single round of combat, assuming the enemy isn't totally destroyed.
 
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Steve Carter
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Doug Pratto wrote:
If so, would a "fresh" set of 3SPs be available for the second round, and then another "fresh" set of 3SPs for the third round etc, etc?

Yes. Each round of combat begins with step 2. of the Combat Procedure wherein step C. requires each side to recalculate its controlled SPs.

Wait. You said "controlled SPs." But there are no "conrolled" SPs. Are the 3 "partipating" but "uncontrolled" SPs considered "controlled" for this calcuation? Remember, in my example there are a large number of controlled British SPs attacking uncontrolled American SPs.

That raises another question: when combat is initiated after movement is complete, the number of controlled SPs attacking is 15+ and the number of "controlled" SPs defending is 0. Does that mean that the odds are 5-0?
Doug Pratto wrote:
Then for the second round, it would till 15-3 for a 5-1, even though 9 American SPs are in the hex?

Yes. Same reason as above.[/q}
Even if they are "uncontrolled?"
[q="Doug Pratto"]So does that mean that there is no combat at all, since there are no controlled SPs in the hex?

Under rule 2.G. of the Combat Procedure, the defender can only retreat if all controlled SPs are eliminated in a single Round. Combat has already begun by the time you get to this step and since (in your example) there are no controlled SPs to begin with, the combat would result in an automatic DE.

OK, this might answer my question above. Since at the moment of combat initiation, no controlled SPs are in the hex, the odds are indeed 5-0, if an automatic DE is the result. No tactical cards? No die roll?
 
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Steve Carter
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nyhotep wrote:
Quote:
If all controlled SPs in the round were eliminated but friendly SPs remain in the hex, the entire friendly force retreats together one hex.


I would read that as "if there are no controlled SP remaining after a round of combat, all remaining (uncontrolled) SP retreat together one hex".

In other words, a large uncontrolled force must always retreat after a single round of combat, assuming the enemy isn't totally destroyed.

OK. I have never given this much consideration, since (until now) this situation has never arisen in a game. It does raise the question of whether a weaker force should evacuate its leaders (less one) prior to a battle to protect the friendly SPs from destruction.
 
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Doug Pratto
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You are both reading the rule incorrectly. "If all controlled SPs this round are eliminated but friendly SPs remain in the hex" is the requirement to retreat. If you are attacked without any controlled SPs, you cannot retreat by this rule unless all 3 (or 4) were eliminated in the same round (you could still retreat by the 2nd bullet under rule G. RETREAT).

A force without controlled SPs can only commit 3 SPs per round in combat. Those 3 SPs are considered controlled even though there is no Leader present (the -1 DRM penalty for uncontrolled SPs would remain in effect).
 
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Steve Carter
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Doug Pratto wrote:
You are both reading the rule incorrectly. "If all controlled SPs this round are eliminated but friendly SPs remain in the hex" is the requirement to retreat. If you are attacked without any controlled SPs, you cannot retreat by this rule unless all 3 (or 4) were eliminated in the same round (you could still retreat by the 2nd bullet under rule G. RETREAT).

A force without controlled SPs can only commit 3 SPs per round in combat. Those 3 SPs are considered controlled even though there is no Leader present (the -1 DRM penalty for uncontrolled SPs would remain in effect).

OK, but then what did you mean in your earlier post when you stated the units would be automatically DE? Under what conditions is that true? I am still confused.
 
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Doug Pratto
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In your example, each round ends in an automatic 1/2DE which eventually eliminates the entire stack. I was just using "DE" figuratively.
 
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Steve Carter
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Doug Pratto wrote:
In your example, each round ends in an automatic 1/2DE which eventually eliminates the entire stack. I was just using "DE" figuratively.

OK, I think I finally figured this out. As long as the British continue to roll "1/2 DE", the rounds will continue since the Americans do not have the option to retreat. However, if the British roll a "DE" then the 3 "participating and provisionally controlled" SPs are eliminated, which then triggers the retreat clause for the Americans. Now I understand the rules better (since I never knew that the 3 participating SPs were considered controlled under the retreat rule). However, it seems a bit unfair that if a DE is actually rolled by the British (which is fairly infrequent in this game), it would benefit the Americans and allow the bulk of their forces to escape.
 
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Doug Pratto
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This clarification (considered controlled) will be added to the revision. Sorry for the confusion. The retreat rule is to reflect the notion that uncontrolled SPs will panic and flee if they see the entire controlled force wiped out in a single round.
 
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