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Subject: How long is a reasonable time to place a tile and meeple/follower? rss

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Richard L
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Since the various expansions seem to add length to the game, what is considered a reasonable amount of time to place your tile and follower?

I'm as guilty as anyone of taking "forever" to place my tiles whistle.

It seems to take too long with more than one expansion unless there is some kind of time limit.
 
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Chris Ferejohn
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15-20 seconds seems reasonable. You can speed it up by having people place and then draw (so they can think about where they might place their tile while others are playing).
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The Broox
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cferejohn wrote:
You can speed it up by having people place and then draw (so they can think about where they might place their tile while others are playing).


I would strongly caution against this. It won't be an issue for every expansion but in some case by drawing in advance the player's "knowledge of the future" can cause issues. For example:

Red has all of his meeples committed to tiles. after finishing his turn he draws a cloister tile from the bag that will fit perfectly into a hole in the board and score an "instant" nine points. Red is bummed he can't get said points. However, Blue is next and she draws a tile that activates the dragon. The dragon is near a red meeple that probably won't end up scoring more than 9 points. Therefore, when it is red's turn to move the dragon instead of moving it defensively he encourages the dragon to remove his own piece by moving it closer to said meeple. That way when his turn comes around again he can grab that easy 9 points from the cloister using the "eaten" meeple. Had he not know what his tile was going to be he probably would have moved the dragon differently and then not been able to claim the cloister.

I picked a not so obvious example to illustrate the problems with this method of tile drawing but it more clearly breaks down with mechanics like the builder and the marketplace to name a few.
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VonKrumm wrote:
Since the various expansions seem to add length to the game, what is considered a reasonable amount of time to place your tile and follower?


From the start of your turn until being hit by the electric cattle prod.
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Richard L
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flapjackmachine wrote:


From the start of your turn until being hit by the electric cattle prod.


I have an electronic chess timer (don't ask) and I have been thinking it would keep things moving a bit faster.

But, I think I'll try the cattle prod before I resort to something as drastic as the timer devil
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Matt Posey
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The Broox wrote:
...but it also more clearly breaks down with mechanics like the builder...

Do explain.
 
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brian
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The Broox wrote:
cferejohn wrote:
You can speed it up by having people place and then draw (so they can think about where they might place their tile while others are playing).


I would strongly caution against this. It won't be an issue for every expansion but in some case by drawing in advance the player's "knowledge of the future" can cause issues. For example:

...

I picked a not so obvious example to illustrate the problems with this method of tile drawing but it also more clearly breaks down with mechanics like the builder and the marketplace to name a few.

I disagree with this sentiment. There isn't a big enough impact to the game in a negative way but benefits the speed of the game tremendously. Draw a new tile as soon as you are done placing the one you have.

Only two situations have presented a "problem" and need to be agreed upon/reminded.
1) Playing with the Abby so you either effectively have a tile for two turns in a row if you decide you want to play the Abby instead, or force the player to choose if he will place the Abby on the next turn before drawing a new tile.

2) At the end of the game with the Builder in play, there might not be enough tiles in play so as the game winds down to the final round or two, people shouldn't grab a tile until the start of their turn in case things run out earlier than expected.
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Andy Leber
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

I disagree with this sentiment. There isn't a big enough impact to the game in a negative way but benefits the speed of the game tremendously. Draw a new tile as soon as you are done placing the one you have.



Agreed. Although it can slightly change the dynamic in some small circumstances, the good outweighs the bad. Plus, everyone has the same advantage/disadvantage, so I don't see an issue.

I'm actually a big fan of the draw 2 tiles variant, for some extra strategy. But even if playing with one tile, I highly recommend taking your tile prior to your next turn.
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Mark L
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I agree with Brian. We always use the rule that you can draw your next tile at the end of your turn.

I can see the point that in some cases (like the aforementioned example with the dragon) it will alter how the game plays out. But I don't see that this is a problem; it's different, but not (IMO) worse. After all, it's the same for everyone.
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Mark L
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To answer the OP, I think about 45 seconds maximum is reasonable.

I know that sounds like a lot, but in base Carcassonne with 72 tiles, if every turn took 45 seconds the game would be 54 minutes long. With both Inns & Cathedrals and Traders & Builders, it would be 85 minutes.

That's a bit longer than ideal, but of course that's a maximum time. Some turns the choice will be obvious, so in fact the game would be much shorter than that. But really, how long is reasonable is however long the group feels is reasonable! We've never imposed a maximum, we just start nagging if someone takes too long!
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The Broox
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mst3k4L wrote:
The Broox wrote:
...but it also more clearly breaks down with mechanics like the builder...

Do explain.


It is mid game and everyone has a tile. Green adds a tile to the city her builder is in. She therefore gets to play a second tile immediately. At this point a compromise has to happen. To follow the rules of the game everyone holding a tile would have to put it back in the tile bag, those tiles should be in the pool that green gets to draw her second tile from. Grey had the perfect tile and is very upset that he has "loose it" and feels screwed. The other option is green draws from the bag that does not have the other players drawn tiles in it (they don't put their tiles back in the bag). Green is very good at Carcassonne and knows that the tile she is looking for is still not played. That is why she added to her city with builder; to get a second chance at drawing the tile she needs. Unfortunately, red has said tile and green is wasting her time/turn and would have played differently had she known the tile was not available. She got screwed.
 
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The Broox
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xipuloxx wrote:
I agree with Brian. We always use the rule that you can draw your next tile at the end of your turn.

I can see the point that in some cases (like the aforementioned example with the dragon) it will alter how the game plays out. But I don't see that this is a problem; it's different, but not (IMO) worse. After all, it's the same for everyone.


But it is a different game. Carcassonne is a game of perfect information, there should be no secret information. Drawing tiles early introduces secret information.
 
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The Broox
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
The Broox wrote:
cferejohn wrote:
You can speed it up by having people place and then draw (so they can think about where they might place their tile while others are playing).


I would strongly caution against this. It won't be an issue for every expansion but in some case by drawing in advance the player's "knowledge of the future" can cause issues. For example:

...

I picked a not so obvious example to illustrate the problems with this method of tile drawing but it also more clearly breaks down with mechanics like the builder and the marketplace to name a few.

I disagree with this sentiment. There isn't a big enough impact to the game in a negative way but benefits the speed of the game tremendously. Draw a new tile as soon as you are done placing the one you have.

Only two situations have presented a "problem" and need to be agreed upon/reminded.
1) Playing with the Abby so you either effectively have a tile for two turns in a row if you decide you want to play the Abby instead, or force the player to choose if he will place the Abby on the next turn before drawing a new tile.

2) At the end of the game with the Builder in play, there might not be enough tiles in play so as the game winds down to the final round or two, people shouldn't grab a tile until the start of their turn in case things run out earlier than expected.


There is a much bigger issue with builder as I illustrated in the post two above this one.
 
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brian
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The Broox wrote:
mst3k4L wrote:
The Broox wrote:
...but it also more clearly breaks down with mechanics like the builder...

Do explain.


It is mid game and everyone has a tile. Green adds a tile to the city her builder is in. She therefore gets to play a second tile immediately. At this point a compromise has to happen. To follow the rules of the game everyone holding a tile would have to put it back in the tile bag, those tiles should be in the pool that green gets to draw her second tile from. Grey had the perfect tile and is very upset that he has "loose it" and feels screwed. The other option is green draws from the bag that does not have the other players drawn tiles in it (they don't put their tiles back in the bag). Green is very good at Carcassonne and knows that the tile she is looking for is still not played. That is why she added to her city with builder; to get a second chance at drawing the tile she needs. Unfortunately, red has said tile and green is wasting her time/turn and would have played differently had she known the tile was not available. She got screwed.

You over dramatize this. There is no guarantee that the builder would have taken the tile that someone else is holding. Your example can still happen even without players taking a tile right away and so offers no substance to the debate.

The impact to the game is minimal and offset in the fact that everyone is at the same (dis)advantage. A player could lose their "prefect piece" before it gets to their turn anyway - or new "best play" options come up with the play of any tile.

Carcassonne is not a "perfect information" game at all. You don't know what tile will be drawn at any given time. A perfect info game would have all the tiles face-up.

Play how you want but the game benefits from having a tile in hand at all times.
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S H
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Unless you are playing Tournament Carcassonne, play how your group wants? Carc is a light-weight, quick(ish), social game.
We let each player hold 3 tiles, makes for more choices (and fun), and plays very quickly (we use I&C and T&B exps).
 
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Mark L
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The Broox wrote:
It is mid game and everyone has a tile. Green adds a tile to the city her builder is in. She therefore gets to play a second tile immediately. At this point a compromise has to happen. To follow the rules of the game everyone holding a tile would have to put it back in the tile bag, those tiles should be in the pool that green gets to draw her second tile from. Grey had the perfect tile and is very upset that he has "loose it" and feels screwed. The other option is green draws from the bag that does not have the other players drawn tiles in it (they don't put their tiles back in the bag). Green is very good at Carcassonne and knows that the tile she is looking for is still not played. That is why she added to her city with builder; to get a second chance at drawing the tile she needs. Unfortunately, red has said tile and green is wasting her time/turn and would have played differently had she known the tile was not available. She got screwed.


OK, I see what you're saying (but please put some empty lines in your wall of text next time!), but I don't think it makes any real difference. Let me explain.

In your example, Red has the tile Green wants. But there's no way for Green to know that. In this situation, Green should either hope the tile is available and go for it, or choose not to take that risk.

And you have no control over what tile you draw, so it's not like Red could choose to block Green in this manner. It's just the luck of the draw -- which is the same luck that applies every time you draw a tile. So in a very real sense, Green's reliant on the luck of the draw whichever rule you use.

In reality, most people don't gamble on getting the tile they want in this manner, because even if it is available your chance of getting it is low -- unless it's one of the last few tiles, in which case this does alter things slightly.

But if that matters to you, you can rule that for the last go (or couple of goes) round the table everyone only draws at the start of their turn as per the written rules. (As in fact is typically done toward the end of the game with the Builder in play, even by groups who use the "draw-ahead" rule.)

Also, most times it's worth getting the extra turn with the Builder anyway, unless the tile you have is better somewhere else. Whatever you draw can usually be used somewhere, if you're playing properly.
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The Broox
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
The Broox wrote:
mst3k4L wrote:
The Broox wrote:
...but it also more clearly breaks down with mechanics like the builder...

Do explain.


It is mid game and everyone has a tile. Green adds a tile to the city her builder is in. She therefore gets to play a second tile immediately. At this point a compromise has to happen. To follow the rules of the game everyone holding a tile would have to put it back in the tile bag, those tiles should be in the pool that green gets to draw her second tile from. Grey had the perfect tile and is very upset that he has "loose it" and feels screwed. The other option is green draws from the bag that does not have the other players drawn tiles in it (they don't put their tiles back in the bag). Green is very good at Carcassonne and knows that the tile she is looking for is still not played. That is why she added to her city with builder; to get a second chance at drawing the tile she needs. Unfortunately, red has said tile and green is wasting her time/turn and would have played differently had she known the tile was not available. She got screwed.


You over dramatize this. There is no guarantee that the builder would have taken the tile that someone else is holding. Your example can still happen even without players taking a tile right away and so offers no substance to the debate.

The impact to the game is minimal and offset in the fact that everyone is at the same (dis)advantage. A player could lose their "prefect piece" before it gets to their turn anyway - or new "best play" options come up with the play of any tile.

Carcassonne is not a "perfect information" game at all. You don't know what tile will be drawn at any given time. A perfect info game would have all the tiles face-up.

Play how you want but the game benefits from having a tile in hand at all times.


You are correct, it is possible green would not draw the necessary tile but there is a chance, a probability that she factored in when she choose to add to her city that contained a builder. If red has the tile she needs there is no chance she can draw it. Thus the game is fundamentally changed.

Carcassone is totally a perfect information game. All drawn tiles are face up in the center of the table (if playing correctly). Therefore, the content of the tile bag can be determined and from there the probability of drawing the needed tile can be calculated and factored into all decisions. If you are not playing this way you are not playing to win.

The easiest example of this is in the base set. The base set has two cloister tiles with 1 road leading to them. This tile is the easiest way to join two separate farms. I, and the people I play with, carefully keep track of how many of said tiles are left in the bag. Knowing that at least one is left in the bag very much changes how I play my fields. I will grab a small field if I know I still have a 50/50 chance (in a two player game) of grabbing the tile I need to connect it to a larger field. I would therefore add to my city that has a builder in it in order to get a second chance at drawing one of the two cloisters this turn. If the other player has it though I am wasting my time. It is a different game at that point.
 
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The Broox
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xipuloxx wrote:
The Broox wrote:
It is mid game and everyone has a tile. Green adds a tile to the city her builder is in. She therefore gets to play a second tile immediately. At this point a compromise has to happen. To follow the rules of the game everyone holding a tile would have to put it back in the tile bag, those tiles should be in the pool that green gets to draw her second tile from. Grey had the perfect tile and is very upset that he has "loose it" and feels screwed. The other option is green draws from the bag that does not have the other players drawn tiles in it (they don't put their tiles back in the bag). Green is very good at Carcassonne and knows that the tile she is looking for is still not played. That is why she added to her city with builder; to get a second chance at drawing the tile she needs. Unfortunately, red has said tile and green is wasting her time/turn and would have played differently had she known the tile was not available. She got screwed.


OK, I see what you're saying (but please put some empty lines in your wall of text next time!), but I don't think it makes any real difference. Let me explain.

In your example, Red has the tile Green wants. But there's no way for Green to know that. In this situation, Green should either hope the tile is available and go for it, or choose not to take that risk.

And you have no control over what tile you draw, so it's not like Red could choose to block Green in this manner. It's just the luck of the draw -- which is the same luck that applies every time you draw a tile. So in a very real sense, Green's reliant on the luck of the draw whichever rule you use.


But you are very much changing the probabilities. If red has the tile then the probability of green getting it are zero. If the tile is in the bag the probability is x/y; where x is number of tiles that would fit and y is the number of tiles left in the bag.


Quote:
In reality, most people don't gamble on getting the tile they want in this manner, because even if it is available your chance of getting it is low -- unless it's one of the last few tiles, in which case this does alter things slightly.


If you are not playing the probabilities and keeping track of at least key tiles you are not playing to win IMO. The base game comes with a sheet to consult during the games in order to see what tile are left to be drawn.

Quote:
But if that matters to you, you can rule that for the last go (or couple of goes) round the table everyone only draws at the start of their turn as per the written rules. (As in fact is typically done toward the end of the game with the Builder in play, even by groups who use the "draw-ahead" rule.)


I begin to take probabilities into account early-mid to mid game.

Quote:
Also, most times it's worth getting the extra turn with the Builder anyway, unless the tile you have is better somewhere else. Whatever you draw can usually be used somewhere, if you're playing properly.


True, but somewhere for 6 points is very different than some where for 4 points now and then an additional 21 at the end of the game.
 
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The Broox wrote:
Carcassone is totally a perfect information game. All drawn tiles are face up in the center of the table (if playing correctly). Therefore, the content of the tile bag can be determined and from there the probability of drawing the needed tile can be calculated and factored into all decisions. If you are not playing this way you are not playing to win.

No, I don't think you understand the definition of "prefect information." A PI game can be played 100% the same way each time you play (take for example 1830: Railways & Robber Barons). That is not possible when a a game has random information that is hidden (draw piles). You can determine what is in the bag and the odds but that does not mean you will draw the tile you want. Therefore you do not know what you are getting and you do not have all the information therefore not a perfect information game.

Quote:
...Knowing that at least one is left in the bag very much changes how I play me fields. I will for sure grab a small filed if I know I still have a 50/50 chance (in a two player game) of grabbing the tile I need to connect it to a larger field. I would therefore add to my city that has a builder in it in order to get a second chance at drawing one of the two cloisters this turn. If the other player has it though I am wasting my time. It is a different game at that point.

Completely disagree. Whether the tile you are looking for is still in the bag or in someone's hand you have the same chance of drawing it. And if it is in the bag and not the one you grab and someone else does, you will know soon enough that it is now "out of play."

It can't change the way you play unless people draw their tile and keep it face up in front of them before it is played.

You are not changing tactics because people are sitting on a tile a round early.

I have played both ways many times and I prefer the draw as soon as you play option as it does not change the dynamics of the game and speeds it up tremendously.
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The Broox wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:

You over dramatize this. There is no guarantee that the builder would have taken the tile that someone else is holding. Your example can still happen even without players taking a tile right away and so offers no substance to the debate.

The impact to the game is minimal and offset in the fact that everyone is at the same (dis)advantage. A player could lose their "prefect piece" before it gets to their turn anyway - or new "best play" options come up with the play of any tile.

Carcassonne is not a "perfect information" game at all. You don't know what tile will be drawn at any given time. A perfect info game would have all the tiles face-up.

Play how you want but the game benefits from having a tile in hand at all times.


You are correct, it is possible green would not draw the necessary tile but there is a chance, a probability that she factored in when she choose to add to her city that contained a builder. If red has the tile she needs there is no chance she can draw it. Thus the game is fundamentally changed.

Carcassone is totally a perfect information game. All drawn tiles are face up in the center of the table (if playing correctly). Therefore, the content of the tile bag can be determined and from there the probability of drawing the needed tile can be calculated and factored into all decisions. If you are not playing this way you are not playing to win.

The easiest example of this is in the base set. The base set has two cloister tiles with 1 road leading to them. This tile is the easiest way to join two separate farms. I, and the people I play with, carefully keep track of how many of said tiles are left in the bag. Knowing that at least one is left in the bag very much changes how I play me fields. I will for sure grab a small filed if I know I still have a 50/50 chance (in a two player game) of grabbing the tile I need to connect it to a larger field. I would therefore add to my city that has a builder in it in order to get a second chance at drawing one of the two cloisters this turn. If the other player has it though I am wasting my time. It is a different game at that point.


The probability to draw the tile is the same regardless of if red drew a tile on her turn or before it. The fact that red is holding 1 tile should make no difference in probability calculations because green has no clue what red is holding. When green sees 40 tiles in a bag and 1 in hand, green knows he has 1 in 41 chance of drawing the tile he needs. If green sees 41 tiles in a bag he still knows he has 1 in 41 chance of drawing the tile he needs.

I'd be prefectly happy to play carcassone with stacks of tiles, one for each player. I typically do this in 6-player games and we'll split stacks if someone runs out of tiles (due to the builder).
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
The Broox wrote:
Carcassone is totally a perfect information game. All drawn tiles are face up in the center of the table (if playing correctly). Therefore, the content of the tile bag can be determined and from there the probability of drawing the needed tile can be calculated and factored into all decisions. If you are not playing this way you are not playing to win.

No, I don't think you understand the definition of "prefect information." A PI game can be played 100% the same way each time you play (take for example 1830: Railways & Robber Barons). That is not possible when a a game has random information that is hidden (draw piles). You can determine what is in the bag and the odds but that does not mean you will draw the tile you want. Therefore you do not know what you are getting and you do not have all the information therefore not a perfect information game.


Ok, I concede that I may be using the wrong term. Let me rephrase it Carcassone is a game of probability and optimization with no secret information.

Quote:
Completely disagree. Whether the tile you are looking for is still in the bag or in someone's hand you have the same chance of drawing it.


If someone else has it the probability is zero, if it is still in the bag the probability is greater than zero, and therefore still has a chance of happening. Those are two very different probabilities.

Quote:
And if it is in the bag and not the one you grab and someone else does, you will know soon enough that it is now "out of play."


But you wont know it on your turn, and knowing it is still available or if it is already take can and often does how I will play my tile this turn.

Quote:
It can't change the way you play unless people draw their tile and keep it face up in front of them before it is played.


Playing like this changes the game even more. Now it is a game of probability and optimization while factoring in what your opponent(s) can and cant do on their next turn.

Quote:
You are not changing tactics because people are sitting on a tile a round early.


It would very much change my tactics, I very much play the probabilities.

Quote:
I have played both ways many times and I prefer the draw as soon as you play option as it does not change the dynamics of the game and speeds it up tremendously.


You are free to play any way you want it is your game and your time. But if you are going to offer a variant that changes the probabilities of the game (a very integral part IMO) please be sure to mention it whe you suggest it.
 
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nordlead wrote:
The Broox wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:

You over dramatize this. There is no guarantee that the builder would have taken the tile that someone else is holding. Your example can still happen even without players taking a tile right away and so offers no substance to the debate.

The impact to the game is minimal and offset in the fact that everyone is at the same (dis)advantage. A player could lose their "prefect piece" before it gets to their turn anyway - or new "best play" options come up with the play of any tile.

Carcassonne is not a "perfect information" game at all. You don't know what tile will be drawn at any given time. A perfect info game would have all the tiles face-up.

Play how you want but the game benefits from having a tile in hand at all times.


You are correct, it is possible green would not draw the necessary tile but there is a chance, a probability that she factored in when she choose to add to her city that contained a builder. If red has the tile she needs there is no chance she can draw it. Thus the game is fundamentally changed.

Carcassone is totally a perfect information game. All drawn tiles are face up in the center of the table (if playing correctly). Therefore, the content of the tile bag can be determined and from there the probability of drawing the needed tile can be calculated and factored into all decisions. If you are not playing this way you are not playing to win.

The easiest example of this is in the base set. The base set has two cloister tiles with 1 road leading to them. This tile is the easiest way to join two separate farms. I, and the people I play with, carefully keep track of how many of said tiles are left in the bag. Knowing that at least one is left in the bag very much changes how I play me fields. I will for sure grab a small filed if I know I still have a 50/50 chance (in a two player game) of grabbing the tile I need to connect it to a larger field. I would therefore add to my city that has a builder in it in order to get a second chance at drawing one of the two cloisters this turn. If the other player has it though I am wasting my time. It is a different game at that point.


The probability to draw the tile is the same regardless of if red drew a tile on her turn or before it. The fact that red is holding 1 tile should make no difference in probability calculations because green has no clue what red is holding. When green sees 40 tiles in a bag and 1 in hand, green knows he has 1 in 41 chance of drawing the tile he needs. If green sees 41 tiles in a bag he still knows he has 1 in 41 chance of drawing the tile he needs.


You are mixing apples and oranges. In pure Caracassone the player perceived probability and the actual probability are the same (this is what I was trying to get at earlier when i called it a perfect information game). By drawing tiles early the two become different. There is the actual probability of what is in the bag and then there is the probability that green can factor not knowing what other people have. These are two (possibly very) different probabilities. You have changed the game.
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Mark L
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The Broox wrote:
xipuloxx wrote:
In your example, Red has the tile Green wants. But there's no way for Green to know that. In this situation, Green should either hope the tile is available and go for it, or choose not to take that risk.

And you have no control over what tile you draw, so it's not like Red could choose to block Green in this manner. It's just the luck of the draw -- which is the same luck that applies every time you draw a tile. So in a very real sense, Green's reliant on the luck of the draw whichever rule you use.


But you are very much changing the probabilities. If red has the tile then the probability of green getting it are zero. If the tile is in the bag the probability is x/y; where x is number of tiles that would fit and y is the number of tiles left in the bag.

If there are 50 tiles left that Green has not seen, then there is a 1 in 50 chance that Green might draw a specific tile. Green has no way of knowing which of those might be in other players' hands, and the chance that any other given player has already drawn it is 1 in 50 -- exactly the same as the chance that Green will draw it now.

So in a Schrodinger's Cat, uncollapsed waveform kind of way, Green's chance of drawing the tile is unaffected by the fact that the other players have already drawn! There are 50 tiles out there, and the chance that Green will draw any given one is the same, from Green's POV.

The Broox wrote:
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In reality, most people don't gamble on getting the tile they want in this manner, because even if it is available your chance of getting it is low -- unless it's one of the last few tiles, in which case this does alter things slightly.


If you are not playing the probabilities and keeping track of at least key tiles you are not playing to win IMO. The base game comes with a sheet to consult during the games in order to see what tile are left to be drawn.


Yes, I know that. What I'm saying is that looking for one specific tile among 50 (or 20 for that matter) is not a sensible gamble. You should be hoping for a good tile, not risking everything on the tiny chance of getting the perfect one.

(As an aside, I actually don't usually keep precise track of the tiles, though I will often check late in the game to see if the tile I want is still available. The expansions don't come with sheets depicting all the tiles, though I have printed out sheets from the CAR to use in the game.)
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The Broox wrote:
Ok, I concede that I may be using the wrong term. Let me rephrase it Carcassone is a game of probability and optimization with no secret information.

There is still secret information - what you are going to pull from the bag....

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Completely disagree. Whether the tile you are looking for is still in the bag or in someone's hand you have the same chance of drawing it.


If someone else has it the probability is zero, if it is still in the bag the probability is greater than zero, and therefore still has a chance of happening. Those are two very different probabilities.

IF they have it in their hand then the chance of drawing it is 0% I agree. But then you have to calculate the probability that they have the exact tile you need.

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And if it is in the bag and not the one you grab and someone else does, you will know soon enough that it is now "out of play."


But you wont know it on your turn, and knowing it is still available or if it is already take can and often does how I will play my tile this turn.

No the point is whether you don't have it because it is still in the bag or because someone has it in hand, YOU still don't have it. And whether you don't have it on your first play or the 2nd tile because of the builder, you STILL don't have it. You won't find out if you still don't have it on your next turn. But if I play it on my turn, now you actually found out earlier.

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You are not changing tactics because people are sitting on a tile a round early.


It would very much change my tactics, I very much play the probabilities.

No. It only changes the probability if you know where everything is at. Again, if there are 40 tiles left and you need only 1 of them, you have a 1 in 40 chance whether that is in the bag or in someone's hand. You not knowing where that tile resides does not change the probabilities therefore can't have an impact on tactics.

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I have played both ways many times and I prefer the draw as soon as you play option as it does not change the dynamics of the game and speeds it up tremendously.


You are free to play any way you want it is your game and your time. But if you are going to offer a variant that changes the probabilities of the game (a very integral part IMO) please be sure to mention it whe you suggest it.
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But it's not......
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