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Subject: Larger Decks for Corp Players rss

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Edwin Twentier
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Ok, so efficiency dictates that a smaller deck is a more streamlined deck, with a player being able to more effectively dictate his draws, but doesn't it also stand to reason that a larger deck for a corp player might also affect what the runner can access from R&D, especially early on before the corp player can effectively protect their primary data forts. Assuming all of the data I've seen is true, could it not be better to dilute a corp deck, say 20 Agenda Points in 49 cards rather than 20 in 45 cards in an effort to give themselves more time to protect R&D and HQ before the runner gets into the thick of their agendas. Jinteki(or any deck that splashes for Precognition for that matter) can play around with that even more, by dictating what is drawn (Especially with Snare). A first turn precognition into leaving an undefended R&D is a conundrum for a Runner, is the corp player taunting me by leaving something worthless on top, taunting me by leaving something horrid on top, or bluffing me by leaving something that they want to draw next turn (and if that something happens to be ice, I can't do anything about it anyway. (Noise complicates this even further, but really if you're not protecting R&D versus Noise there's a problem anyway.)

Before I go any further on that tangent, let me point this out:

(45 card deck, 9 Agenda Cards)
With no deck manipulation a player has a one in five chance of hitting an agenda from a single random card in R&D. As the game progresses, that chance heightens, as more and more cards are accessed. Conversely, a corp player has more and more clicks to devote to protecting R&D, so that part of the game is balanced, in theory anyway.

(49 card deck, 9 Agenda Cards)
Now the chance doesn't become 1 in five until 5 cards are accessed from R&D, giving the Corp player slightly more time to protect it until that becomes an issue. If those 4 cards are more cards that could protect R&D, the chances of drawing an opportunity to protect R&D Early game increase as opposed to decreasing.

These are just some of my thoughts on playing a defensive corp deck, didn't really get a chance to play the original too much so any input from an old salt would definitely be appreciated.
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Enon Sci
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Nice thoughts. I'd don't have much to add, save this: in Classic Netrunner, the agenda increase came at 46 cards, not at 50. This is where the legacy of running deck minimums came from, and it's a smart change on FFG's part, encouraging variety over a culture of self similarity.
 
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Matthew Trent
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One point to consider when adding more cards to R&D you not only dilute the number of agend cards but also reduce the frequency of out of faction cards. Presumably they are included due to a desire to draw them.
 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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As far as protecting a Corp's central servers, the addition of a mulligan rule is a much greater change than the ability to add four cards to one's deck.
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Anthony Martins
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sdiberar wrote:
As far as protecting a Corp's central servers, the addition of a mulligan rule is a much greater change than the ability to add four cards to one's deck.


Very true.

But then, it still might be worth it to throw those four cards in. That's a 9% dilution. Over several games, it could make a difference.
 
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David Boeren
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cetiken wrote:
One point to consider when adding more cards to R&D you not only dilute the number of agend cards but also reduce the frequency of out of faction cards. Presumably they are included due to a desire to draw them.


Presumably ALL your cards are included due to a desire to draw them.
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Noah D

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He's got a point though, especially with only the core set, decks are likely to have a number of in-faction cards that aren't particularly suited to the deck's strategy, but are included simply because of a lack of alternatives. Those cards on which the player spent his influence points however are almost guaranteed to be key and highly desirable cards, just based upon the fact that they are a smaller number taken from a larger number (3 times the card pull of your own corp faction) a sort of cream of the crop.

Now as to the OP, there's some really weird logic going on here when you're talking about probabilities. The one in five chance of hitting an agenda from a random R&D run does NOT increase as more and more cards are accessed...

And when looking at the 49 card deck you said "Now the chance doesn't become 1 in five until 5 cards are accessed" no no no, it doesn't work that way at all. shake Try, "the chance goes from 20% to 18%...." (and stays that way)
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B C Z
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argus88 wrote:
He's got a point though, especially with only the core set, decks are likely to have a number of in-faction cards that aren't particularly suited to the deck's strategy, but are included simply because of a lack of alternatives. Those cards on which the player spent his influence points however are almost guaranteed to be key and highly desirable cards, just based upon the fact that they are a smaller number taken from a larger number (3 times the card pull of your own corp faction) a sort of cream of the crop.


Based on the cards we've seen, I challenge the assertion that in-faction cards won't be suited to a strategy involving that Identity, especially if some of your in-faction cards have been dropped in favor of out-of-faction equivalents, upgrades or 'extra's.

You'll have chosen everything in your deck.

 
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Philip Morton
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byronczimmer wrote:
Based on the cards we've seen, I challenge the assertion that in-faction cards won't be suited to a strategy involving that Identity, especially if some of your in-faction cards have been dropped in favor of out-of-faction equivalents, upgrades or 'extra's.

You'll have chosen everything in your deck.

...except the agendas.

Also, "suited to a strategy involving that Identity" isn't the same as "suited to your deck's strategy."
 
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Noah D

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Chrondeath wrote:

...except the agendas.

Also, "suited to a strategy involving that Identity" isn't the same as "suited to your deck's strategy."

This. (These? lol)
 
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Adam Rouse
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Is death by milling enough of a threat that the extra cards would be desirable to combat this alternate victory condition, too? I know the rule book says it is not common, but I don't know what they consider rare. I enjoy making mill decks in other games. It's the only deck type I use for Cthulhu.
 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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adamxpaul wrote:
Is death by milling enough of a threat that the extra cards would be desirable to combat this alternate victory condition, too? I know the rule book says it is not common, but I don't know what they consider rare. I enjoy making mill decks in other games. It's the only deck type I use for Cthulhu.

It's rare, and why that would be so is obvious if you think for a minute. There are enough points to win the game a couple times over in the Corp deck -- where are those Agenda if not in R&D? They have to be somewhere, probably somewhere the Runner can access easily by the endgame.
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adamxpaul wrote:
Is death by milling enough of a threat that the extra cards would be desirable to combat this alternate victory condition, too? I know the rule book says it is not common, but I don't know what they consider rare. I enjoy making mill decks in other games. It's the only deck type I use for Cthulhu.


We don't know yet, we don't know how many Viruses Noise has access to.
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Adam Rouse
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Viruses cause milling? Great, I was planning to play Noise already.

Thanks.
 
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James W
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So far we've seen the keyword virus on Noise's Identity card, Crypsis and Datasucker.

Based on Crypsis and Datasucker, virus programs do not all directly cause trashing.

Indirectly however, Noise's ability forces the Corp to trash the top card of R&D whenever he installs a virus program.


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Anthony Martins
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adamxpaul wrote:
Is death by milling enough of a threat that the extra cards would be desirable to combat this alternate victory condition, too? I know the rule book says it is not common, but I don't know what they consider rare. I enjoy making mill decks in other games. It's the only deck type I use for Cthulhu.


If you like milling, it will have side benefits for the Runner anyhow (like Archives access).
 
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adamxpaul wrote:
Viruses cause milling? Great, I was planning to play Noise already.

Thanks.


Noise's Virus installss cause milling.

Some Viruses in the original game caused milling.

We don't know if he has any that cause milling as we still haven't seen the Runer expose article.
 
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Edwin Twentier
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Goes to 1 in 18%, and stays that way...

I seem to think that if you have accessed 4 cards in R&D without hitting an agenda, that your chances are better than when you started, they've gone to 9 cards out of the remaining 45 cards. As you access more cards, you change the chances of the next card being something. Either by taking 1 agenda out, or identifying 1 card as a non agenda, and potentially removing it. Odds change in this game, and while 9 out of 49 is an assessment of how it is to start, it does not remain 9 out of 49. Once a card has been determined to not be an agenda and is drawn from the deck by the corp, the ratio is now 9 out of the unknown 48. If the runner steals an agenda with his first run on R&D it goes to 8 in 48, the decks and their contents change, there's no way the results of one run on R&D don't affect future runs, (with the exception of replacing the card and running again before the corp's deck changes, which is, in most cases, silly.
 
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