Daniel B
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So if I play Miruvor on another player's hero and that player later triggers the action and chooses to put it on the top of the deck, then it goes on top of his/her deck (and not back on top of my deck). Is that the correct way of playing it?

edit: image

OFFICIAL REPLY HERE
 
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John Steinbach
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Re: Miruvor on top of which deck?
No. It will go to the top of its owner's deck (i.e., the deck of the person who originally played the card).

From p.25 of the rules (the "Control and Ownership" subsection):

"A player 'owns' his heroes and the cards that he has chosen for the player deck he is playing...Any time a card leaves play, it reverts to its owner's hand, deck, or discard pile (as directed by the effect forcing the card out of play)."
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Daniel B
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Re: Miruvor on top of which deck?
Starhawk77 wrote:
No. It will go to the top of its owner's deck (i.e., the deck of the person who originally played the card).

From p.25 of the rules (the "Control and Ownership" subsection):

"A player 'owns' his heroes and the cards that he has chosen for the player deck he is playing...Any time a card leaves play, it reverts to its owner's hand, deck, or discard pile (as directed by the effect forcing the card out of play)."

Yes, but you're forgetting the golden rule (p.4):
"If the game text of a card contradicts the text of this rulebook, the text on the card takes precedence."

The card clearly says "put Miruvor on the top of your deck".

The text on the card contradicts the text of the rulebook, and that's why I interpreted it as in my original post (but it feels so wrong...)

Is there any more "proof" of your interpretation apart from the rules quote. Because as far as I can tell the golden rule trumps it (if we're getting rules lawyery).
 
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Daniel B
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Re: Miruvor on top of which deck?
I guess that if they really wanted the golden rule to kick in they would have been even more specific about it (kind of like how they specify when a card actually bypasses an active location to put progress on a quest).

After some pondering I'm content with the fact that the golden rule does not apply here.

But the thing that kind of bugs me is that it would have been so easy to just word it differently ("put Miruvor on the top of its owner's deck") to avoid confusion.
 
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John Steinbach
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Re: Miruvor on top of which deck?
Deebs wrote:

But the thing that kind of bugs me is that it would have been so easy to just word it differently ("put Miruvor on the top of its owner's deck") to avoid confusion.

Welcome to LotR LCG
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Tom Howard
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Re: Miruvor on top of which deck?
Both of you have very logical and sound answers, and this could certainly use a clarification from FFG. In the meantime, I'm probably going to play it as if the card goes back to the owner's deck. That way if I happen to play this card on my buddy who's running an all Tactics deck, for example, then it'd be completely useless (and kinda strange) if it went back on top of his deck.
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Daniel B
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Re: Miruvor on top of which deck?
GeckoTH wrote:
That way if I happen to play this card on my buddy who's running an all Tactics deck, for example, then it'd be completely useless (and kinda strange) if it went back on top of his deck.

Well, you still have other options to trigger from the card apart from the useless one. We've seen card(s?) before that are only really useful of both players play the same sphere.

The example I can think of right off the bat is "Rider of the Mark" which reads: "Action: Spend 1 Spirit resource to give control of Rider of the Mark to another player. (Limit once per round.)"

The player you give it to must also have Spirit resources in order to be able to give it to someone else.
 
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Thanee
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Re: Miruvor on top of which deck?
It definitely makes sense to always have the owner put cards back into the deck in any case.

So, yeah, read "you" as the "owner" in this case.

Besides, it isn't really a contradiction, if you treat it like that.

Card leaves play to be put back on top of the deck. Owner gains control of the card. Card is put on owner's deck.

Bye
Thanee
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Daniel B
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Re: Miruvor on top of which deck?
Thanee wrote:
So, yeah, read "you" as the "owner" in this case.

Besides, it isn't really a contradiction, if you treat it like that.

I agree that it makes sense that the rules are applied like that in this case but there is absolutely no way "you" is meant to be read as the "owner" in general. The "you" and "your" that follows an "Action:" must be interpreted as the person triggering the action, that is the controller of the card and not the owner.
 
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Original Dibbler
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Re: Miruvor on top of which deck?
Deebs wrote:
Thanee wrote:
So, yeah, read "you" as the "owner" in this case.

Besides, it isn't really a contradiction, if you treat it like that.

I agree that it makes sense that the rules are applied like that in this case but there is absolutely no way "you" is meant to be read as the "owner" in general. The "you" and "your" that follows an "Action:" must be interpreted as the person triggering the action, that is the controller of the card and not the owner.


And therfore the cards goes to deck of the player who triggers that action.

In the end it comes down to: put the card on your hero and you can use it multiple times or add it to another players hero for a stronger effect that can take place only once.
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cosined
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Re: Miruvor on top of which deck?
I read it as the controller putting it on their deck.

The card should be resolved entirely, so the discarding portion of the action triggers the choice. And one of the options is putting it on "your" deck, in which I interpret the card speaking to the whomever triggered the card effect. Sure there are cases where it makes no sense to end up with the card on a off-sphere deck, but there are other options to choose besides the deck one.
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Daniel B
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Re: Miruvor on top of which deck?
OFFICIAL REPLY:

I wrote:
The card Miruvor is an attachment that is played on a hero. I can play it on another player's hero and that player then controls (but doesn't own) the card.

When that player triggers the "Action:" on the card he may select 2 of the listed effects. One of the effects that can be selected reads:
"put Miruvor on the top of your deck"

My question is, does that player then:
a) indeed put it on the top of his deck (the controller)
b) put it on the top of my deck (the owner)


A support for option b) is that the rules (p.25) talk about control and ownership and says that "when a card leaves play, it reverts to its owner's hand, deck or discard pile".

A support for option a) is that this is covered by the golden rule and the card clearly tells the person activating the card to put it on the top of his deck which contradicts the rulebook.


Caleb wrote:
Hi Daniel,
When resolving Miruvor's ability, the Golden Rule will supersede the Ownership rule. For example, if Player A attaches Miruvor to Player B's hero and Player B chooses the option "put Miruvor on the top of your deck" then Player B player will put Miruvor on top of his deck.
Regards,
Caleb


Thanks Caleb!
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Tom Howard
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Thanks for digging up the answer!

I certainly stand corrected, but the ruling makes sense – so I've got no problem with it!
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John Steinbach
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Ok, I can understand that. Kudos to FFG for the quick reply--they have been pretty responsive lately. Now, what are the strategic implications? If your partner is also playing Spirit, they can start recycling Miruvor indefinitely. Not sure how to take advantage of that, though...
 
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Tom Howard
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Well, since you are playing Spirit, you can already cycle the card indefinitely on your own Hero. So there's nothing new there.
 
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John Steinbach
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Yeah, I think the practical impact will come when your partner ISN'T playing Spirit. Under my initial (and incorrect) interpretation, you (playing Spirit) could play Miruvor on your partner (playing, say, Tactics). He/she could then discard Miruvor (choosing the "return to deck" option) and return the attachment to the top of your deck. Draw, rinse, repeat.

Now, if your companion is not able to replay Miruvor independently, there's no reason to select the "return to deck" choice (unless he or she wants to draw a useless card, for some reason).
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Thanee
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Huh... they are definitely not playing enough M:tG over at FFG.

Strange ruling to say the least. It is always weird, if cards from one deck end up in another.

Bye
Thanee
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