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Subject: Input Wanted on US Presidents for the upcoming game Battle For Souls rss

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Robert Burke
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Hello all!

Chime in and get credit in the rulebook.

My newest game Battle For Souls is coming along nicely. After many tweaks we are very happy with the balance, speed and decision making required.

During a game, one player, or team, plays the side of heaven and the other player, or team, plays the side of hell. Each tries to capitalize on a soul's heavenly virtue (7 heavenly virtues) or mortal weakness (7 deadly sins).

The game will ship with 21 soul cards, but as an expansion I plan to do a 44 card set of US Presidents, from Washington to Obama. I think it would be great fun to battle over the souls of the Presidents, and it would be a great way to learn them as well.

Below is how the soul cards will look. The ring around each portrait includes their heavenly virtue on top, and mortal weakness on bottom.



What I need help with is what should each President's mortal weakness and heavenly virtue be?

For example, for George W. Bush, a heavenly virtue of Diligence (stay the course) and mortal weakness of Wrath (wars) makes the most sense.

Bill Clinton's weakness would be Lust (Lewinski scandal)... etc...

I will need to research each President and also balance the virtues/weakness among the 44.

What virtue and weakness would you apply to the Presidents?

Here's a list of the Heavenly Virtues:

1. Charity
2. Chastity
3. Diligence
4. Humility
5. Kindness
6. Patience
7. Temperance

and the Mortal Weaknesses:

1. Envy
2. Gluttony
3. Greed
4. Lust
5. Pride
6. Sloth
7. Wrath

It's important to me to avoid any political statement with this. Instead, I want to have a defendable reason for each weakness/virtue selection based on a consensus of historians.

Any suggestions on which President should get which virtue/weakness and WHY would be greatly appreciated!

Here's the list of Presidents:
I will update with suggestions and will bold them when final. Thanks for your help! I will need to have each virtue and each weakness a appear at least 6 times. And one virtue and one weakness appear 7 times.

1. George Washington - Patience, Pride
2. John Adams - Humility, Wrath
3. Thomas Jefferson - Temperance, Lust
4. James Madison - Diligence, Greed
5. James Monroe - Temperance, Greed
6. John Quincy Adams - Kindness, Pride
7. Andrew Jackson - Diligence, Wrath
8. Martin Van Buren - Patience, Sloth
9. William Henry Harrison - Temperance, Pride
10. John Tyler - Diligence, Lust
11. James K. Polk - Diligence, Greed
12. Zachary Taylor - Diligence, Wrath
13. Millard Fillmore - Humility, Sloth
14. Franklin Pierce - Kindness, Gluttony
15. James Buchanan - Chastity, Sloth
16. Abraham Lincoln - Kindness, Wrath
17. Andrew Johnson - Charity, Pride
18. Ulysses S. Grant Gluttony
19. Rutherford B. Hayes - Temperance, Envy
20. James Garfield - Humility,
21. Chester A. Arthur - Humility, Gluttony
22. Grover Cleveland - Chastity, Gluttony
23. Benjamin Harrison
24. Grover Cleveland - Chastity, Gluttony
25. William McKinley - Envy
26. Theodore Roosevelt - Kindness, Pride
27. William Howard Taft Gluttony
28. Woodrow Wilson - Kindness, Pride
29. Warren G. Harding - Kindness, Envy
30. Calvin Coolidge - Humility, Sloth
31. Herbert Hoover - Temperance, Sloth
32. Franklin D. Roosevelt - Charity,
33. Harry S. Truman - Wrath
34. Dwight D. Eisenhower - Diligence, Pride
35. John F. Kennedy - Kindness, Lust
36. Lyndon B. Johnson - Diligence, Envy
37. Richard M. Nixon - Chastity, Envy
38. Gerald R. Ford - Envy
39. James Carter - Charity, Sloth
40. Ronald Reagan - Patience, Pride
41. George H. W. Bush - Chastity, Envy
42. William J. Clinton - Kindness, Lust
43. George W. Bush - Diligence, Wrath
44. Barack Obama - Charity, Sloth
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Quote:
It's important to me to avoid any political statement with this.


I predict it will be closed by a moderator by page 3, after it melts down into a monkey pooh fight at the zoo.

But until then:

Nixon's would be Diligence (career persistence, "You won't have Nixon to kick around anymore") and Pride (sense of self-importance, "it's not illegal if the President does it!"), I would think.

And that's the only one I'm going to do.
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Robert Burke
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CountDeMoney wrote:
Quote:
It's important to me to avoid any political statement with this.


I predict it will be closed by a moderator by page 3, after it melts down into a monkey pooh fight at the zoo.

But until then:

Nixon's would be Diligence (career persistence, "You won't have Nixon to kick around anymore") and Pride (sense of self-importance, "it's not illegal if the President does it!"), I would think.

And that's the only one I'm going to do.


I think Pride fits Nixon well as the weakness, but can Diligence be the best choice considering that he resigned?

I really hope this does not turn into a political dogfight, I am really looking for well-thought out answers, especially on lesser-known Presidents.


 
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David Boeren
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So the concept is to discuss how best to slander each president, but you're not allowed to make any political statements?

I look forward to seeing if you can pull this off, seems a bit tricky.

Or is this sort of like a bar bet, where you've got some kind of "outside the box" workaround planned to fool all the rubes who thought it was impossible?
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Ben Rosset
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I will offer humility for the virtue of John Adams. He was the first president to lose a contested election (to Thomas Jefferson in 1800). His humility in stepping down and ensuring an orderly transition of power was important for the survival of our early democracy.
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Robert Burke
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dboeren wrote:
So the concept is to discuss how best to slander each president, but you're not allowed to make any political statements?

I look forward to seeing if you can pull this off, seems a bit tricky.

Or is this sort of like a bar bet, where you've got some kind of "outside the box" workaround planned to fool all the rubes who thought it was impossible?


No, the idea is not to slander. But to offer historical evidence to each President's greatest weakness AND greatest asset. They all had them, they were all human.

Sometimes I think the choice will be clear (Lust for Clinton, Gluttony for Taft)

And sometimes it will be more the place in history during which the President served. i.e. Wartime Presidents may get Wrath by default.

And to get the balance right I will most likely have to choose virtues/weakness that may not be the best choice.

It won't be easy, and I won't please everyone with the final choices, but I want to put some thought and effort into it.

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rosset37 wrote:
I will offer humility for the virtue of John Adams. He was the first president to lose a contested election (to Thomas Jefferson in 1800). His humility in stepping down and ensuring an orderly transition of power was important for the survival of our early democracy.


Thanks Ben. That's fantastic, and just what I am looking for!
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Tinyelvis wrote:
I think Pride fits Nixon well as the weakness, but can Diligence be the best choice considering that he resigned?


Considering the length of his life, growing up in relative poverty, the loss of two brothers at an early age for him, unable to attend Harvard in order to take care of his family and their business, rising from Congressman to the Vice Presidency, the fact that he quit the entire political scene for years after losing to Kennedy, all to return and finally win in 1968 and reelection in 1972.

Yeah, I'd call that a little Diligence.

 
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Tinyelvis wrote:
It won't be easy, and I won't please everyone with the final choices, but I want to put some thought and effort into it.


Maybe, instead of going through all 44, you concentrate on some of the "bigger" names. Might make things easier.
 
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Ed G.
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What is the point of this post? Presidents of the United States are some of the most-written about people in the world. Their character traits are obvious and well documented. What are you asking for that can't be determined by a few minutes of easy research?
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Washington 6. Patience and . Lust

John Adams 4. Humility and 7. Wrath

Thomas Jefferson 7. Temperance and Lust
most have concluded that Jefferson had a long relationship with Hemings and fathered one or more of her children

James Madison 3. Diligence and Greed
Madison supervised the Louisiana Purchase, which doubled the nation’s size. After his election to the presidency, he presided over renewed prosperity for several years.

James Monroe 3. Greed
Following his retirement in 1825, Monroe was plagued by financial difficulties

John Quincy Adams 5. Kindness and 5. Pride
serving for the last 17 years of his life with far greater success than he had achieved in the presidency. Animated by his growing revulsion against slavery,[7]

Andrew Jackson 3. Diligence 7. Wrath
I dont t6hink I need to quote anything here haha

Martin Van Buren 6. Patience and 6. Sloth
His administration was largely characterized by the economic hardship of his time,

William Henry Harrison 7. Temperance 5. Pride
When Harrison came to Washington, he wanted to show that he was still the steadfast hero of Tippecanoe. He took the oath of office on March 4, 1841, a cold and wet day. He wore neither an overcoat nor hat, and delivered the longest inaugural address in American history.


Off to lunch now.






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Andrew Jackson- Diligence (against national bank) Wrath (removal of the Native Americans)
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Ursus_Major wrote:
What is the point of this post? Presidents of the United States are some of the most-written about people in the world. Their character traits are obvious and well documented. What are you asking for that can't be determined by a few minutes of easy research?


Really? A few minutes of research is going to determine which of the seven deadly sins Chester A. Arthur suffered from?

Hey, have at it, then.
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CountDeMoney wrote:
Tinyelvis wrote:
I think Pride fits Nixon well as the weakness, but can Diligence be the best choice considering that he resigned?


Considering the length of his life, growing up in relative poverty, the loss of two brothers at an early age for him, unable to attend Harvard in order to take care of his family and their business, rising from Congressman to the Vice Presidency, the fact that he quit the entire political scene for years after losing to Kennedy, all to return and finally win in 1968 and reelection in 1972.

Yeah, I'd call that a little Diligence.



Yes, I agree with what you have said. But the vast majority of Americans do not know all of that history. They do know that Nixon resigned the Presidency though. And he is the only US President to ever do so. I suppose you could make the case for Diligence for anyone who has risen to the Presidency. I think the fact that he resigned makes Diligence one of the virtues he should not be given. I am thinking Chastity only because I am not aware of any Nixon affairs. I'm afraid every president may be a difficult decision.
 
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Ursus_Major wrote:
What is the point of this post? Presidents of the United States are some of the most-written about people in the world. Their character traits are obvious and well documented. What are you asking for that can't be determined by a few minutes of easy research?


It's a very interesting topic for conversation, that's why. You don't have to participate if you do not want to Ed.
 
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charlescab wrote:
Washington 6. Patience and . Lust

John Adams 4. Humility and 7. Wrath

Thomas Jefferson 7. Temperance and Lust
most have concluded that Jefferson had a long relationship with Hemings and fathered one or more of her children

James Madison 3. Diligence and Greed
Madison supervised the Louisiana Purchase, which doubled the nation’s size. After his election to the presidency, he presided over renewed prosperity for several years.

James Monroe 3. Greed
Following his retirement in 1825, Monroe was plagued by financial difficulties

John Quincy Adams 5. Kindness and 5. Pride
serving for the last 17 years of his life with far greater success than he had achieved in the presidency. Animated by his growing revulsion against slavery,[7]

Andrew Jackson 3. Diligence 7. Wrath
I dont t6hink I need to quote anything here haha

Martin Van Buren 6. Patience and 6. Sloth
His administration was largely characterized by the economic hardship of his time,

William Henry Harrison 7. Temperance 5. Pride
When Harrison came to Washington, he wanted to show that he was still the steadfast hero of Tippecanoe. He took the oath of office on March 4, 1841, a cold and wet day. He wore neither an overcoat nor hat, and delivered the longest inaugural address in American history.


Off to lunch now.






Thanks Charles! any input on the reasons for the Washington and Adams choices?
 
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CountDeMoney wrote:
Tinyelvis wrote:
It won't be easy, and I won't please everyone with the final choices, but I want to put some thought and effort into it.


Maybe, instead of going through all 44, you concentrate on some of the "bigger" names. Might make things easier.


I suppose I am looking for input on any that people wish to chime in on. It will be a good starting point. I will need to do a lot of biography reading as well.
 
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A tough undertaking.

Many of the virtues can be applied to our presidents, diligence to all, the other virtues to many. So, allow me to throw some better men under the bus.

Some presidents pursuing Manifest Destiny (pride):
John Quincy Adams
James K. Polk
James Monroe
Andrew Jackson (was the Indian Removal Act towards M.D.?)

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were prideful in their attempts/policies at acculturation of Native Americans. Jefferson also "lusted" after a friend's wife (Betsey Walker). Clinton and Kennedy could also get the "lust" tag, and an internet search would probably turn up another handful of presidents who had some lustful indescretions.

Some presidents delivering retribution for an offense (wrath)
Reagan - bombing Libya
James Madison - declares war (of 1812 and in Algiers), though greed may have been more prominent than retribution in 1812 (or would it be envy if Canadian lands)
Andrew Jackson - 1st Sumatran Expedition (retaliation for killing of a merchant ship's crew)
Franklin Pierce - attacks Nicaragua in retribution for taxing U.S. ships
James Buchanon - military response for Paraguayans firing on U.S. ship
Andrew Johnson - military response in Formosa for attack on U.S. soldiers by natives
Ulysses Grant - military response in Korea for U.S. ship being fired upon

I'm out of time... but many/most U.S. military campaigns were formally for retribution. There are probably many websites listing official military campaigns or declarations of war that will give you good examples of our President's wrath.

Good luck.
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Pip Count 167 wrote:
A tough undertaking.

Many of the virtues can be applied to our presidents, diligence to all, the other virtues to many. So, allow me to throw some better men under the bus.

Some presidents pursuing Manifest Destiny (pride):
John Quincy Adams
James K. Polk
James Monroe
Andrew Jackson (was the Indian Removal Act towards M.D.?)

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were prideful in their attempts/policies at acculturation of Native Americans. Jefferson also "lusted" after a friend's wife (Betsey Walker). Clinton and Kennedy could also get the "lust" tag, and an internet search would probably turn up another handful of presidents who had some lustful indescretions.

Some presidents delivering retribution for an offense (wrath)
Reagan - bombing Libya
James Madison - declares war (of 1812 and in Algiers), though greed may have been more prominent than retribution in 1812 (or would it be envy if Canadian lands)
Andrew Jackson - 1st Sumatran Expedition (retaliation for killing of a merchant ship's crew)
Franklin Pierce - attacks Nicaragua in retribution for taxing U.S. ships
James Buchanon - military response for Paraguayans firing on U.S. ship
Andrew Johnson - military response in Formosa for attack on U.S. soldiers by natives
Ulysses Grant - military response in Korea for U.S. ship being fired upon

I'm out of time... but many/most U.S. military campaigns were formally for retribution. There are probably many websites listing official military campaigns or declarations of war that will give you good examples of our President's wrath.

Good luck.


Thanks!

It looks like Charity, Chastity and Envy will be the toughest.

Any Presidents stick out as being prime candidates for these?
 
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Tinyelvis wrote:
Yes, I agree with what you have said. But the vast majority of Americans do not know all of that history. They do know that Nixon resigned the Presidency though. And he is the only US President to ever do so. I suppose you could make the case for Diligence for anyone who has risen to the Presidency. I think the fact that he resigned makes Diligence one of the virtues he should not be given. I am thinking Chastity only because I am not aware of any Nixon affairs. I'm afraid every president may be a difficult decision.


Actually, I think most Americans would remember the fact that he was a two-term Vice President who created the role of running mate as hatchet man, lost the closest presidential election at the time, and winning a two-term presidency.

But, if you consider resignation in the face of impeding constitutional removal from office as a lack of Diligence compared to his political career, then go for it, dude. It's your game.

Chasity would be good alternative then, considering his Quaker upbringing.
 
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Tinyelvis wrote:
It looks like Charity, Chastity and Envy will be the toughest.

Any Presidents stick out as being prime candidates for these?


You could probably fit FDR (New Deal) and LBJ (Great Society, Civil Rights) in for Charity or even Kindness, but those are wide open to interpretation, as I'm sure a great many would not consider their accomplishments as positive traits.

Jimmy Carter was a rather chaste man.


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CountDeMoney wrote:
Tinyelvis wrote:
Yes, I agree with what you have said. But the vast majority of Americans do not know all of that history. They do know that Nixon resigned the Presidency though. And he is the only US President to ever do so. I suppose you could make the case for Diligence for anyone who has risen to the Presidency. I think the fact that he resigned makes Diligence one of the virtues he should not be given. I am thinking Chastity only because I am not aware of any Nixon affairs. I'm afraid every president may be a difficult decision.


Actually, I think most Americans would remember the fact that he was a two-term Vice President who created the role of running mate as hatchet man, lost the closest presidential election at the time, and winning a two-term presidency.

But, if you consider resignation in the face of impeding constitutional removal from office as a lack of Diligence compared to his political career, then go for it, dude. It's your game.

Chasity would be good alternative then, considering his Quaker upbringing.


I don't consider his resignation necessarily a lack of Diligence, and I actually agree with you on the choice. I am more thinking of the perception. And resignation is opposite of what people expect when they think of diligence. Even though everything in his career shows tenacity.

Nixon's Quaker upbringing, absence of affair rumors, and the love letters to his wife Pat are why I am leaning to Chastity. Plus it will be hard to find Presidents who I can apply Chastity to, so I think I should apply Chastity where I can find it. Do you think my line of thinking is flawed?
 
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Tinyelvis wrote:
I don't consider his resignation necessarily a lack of Diligence, and I actually agree with you on the choice. I am more thinking of the perception. And resignation is opposite of what people expect when they think of diligence. Even though everything in his career shows tenacity.

Nixon's Quaker upbringing, absence of affair rumors, and the love letters to his wife Pat are why I am leaning to Chastity. Plus it will be hard to find Presidents who I can apply Chastity to, so I think I should apply Chastity where I can find it. Do you think my line of thinking is flawed?


Not necessarily; like someone already wrote, you can apply Diligence to every President, because that's what it takes to get there in the first place, and a whole lot of it at that. I just happen to think that it applied to Nixon more than others, as there were few politicians that rose from the ashes to the pinnacle as he did.

But yeah, Chasity is a tough one to apply; plenty of love stories between presidents and their wives, and then not enough of them, either.
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CountDeMoney wrote:
Tinyelvis wrote:
I don't consider his resignation necessarily a lack of Diligence, and I actually agree with you on the choice. I am more thinking of the perception. And resignation is opposite of what people expect when they think of diligence. Even though everything in his career shows tenacity.

Nixon's Quaker upbringing, absence of affair rumors, and the love letters to his wife Pat are why I am leaning to Chastity. Plus it will be hard to find Presidents who I can apply Chastity to, so I think I should apply Chastity where I can find it. Do you think my line of thinking is flawed?


Not necessarily; like someone already wrote, you can apply Diligence to every President, because that's what it takes to get there in the first place, and a whole lot of it at that. I just happen to think that it applied to Nixon more than others, as there were few politicians that rose from the ashes to the pinnacle as he did.

But yeah, Chasity is a tough one to apply; plenty of love stories between presidents and their wives, and then not enough of them, either.


Thanks for all your input Jay.
 
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Patience for Reagan. Not that he sat idle, but his plans took a long time to mature.
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