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Subject: 1. Hold breath. 2. Close eyes. 3. Jump into miniatures (again). rss

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Peter Collins
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Yep,it's only two years since I sold my Warhammer Dark Elf minis on ebay and swore off miniatures gaming forevermore. I was sick of having to buy new minis every year or so (new special units, army book rewrites, etc. etc.), the constant wear of making time to painstakingly paint the models, playing games with 70% un-painted units, and on and on.

Now I've been reading David Chandler's The Campaigns of Napoleon and those fantasies are back. Of billiards tables covered with green-painted plywood arrayed with little trees and hills and streams and buildings.

And lots and lots of little bitty colorful lead toy soldiers on stands, wheeling and charging and forming square and rallying and falling over, getting beer spilled on them, bent bayonets, wheels falling off gun carriages, insane nights spent bidding on models on ebay, hours and hours dabbing bits of paint on teensy little uniforms... Fun fun fun!

So the questions are: what models? what rules set?

I have a copy of Sam Mustafa's LaSalle rules. I've been looking at the 6mm minis on Baccus6mm.com.

What models do you all prefer? What rules sets do you like? What other advice do you have, besides that I get my head checked?

Thanks.

'nuf sed.
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Mark Stadel
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You'll probably find the historical miniature gaming less prone to endless updates, etc ..., than the fantasy (with GW being the worst offender of all).

Pick a time and scale you like and go ... it helps if that also happens to be what others in your area are playing as well (lots of small, and not so small, clubs around). The main thing is not to buy too much lead, and get buried under it: buy one army, finish it, then move to the next. (I break that rule often but that's the idea ).

BGG's not really the greatest resource for mini gaming ... http://theminiaturespage.com/ is a good place to start.
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Peter Collins
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nomad001 wrote:
You'll probably find the historical miniature gaming less prone to endless updates, etc ..., than the fantasy (with GW being the worst offender of all).


That's right. I was fed up with GW's incessant updating of rules and models. Evidently there was insufficient playtesting to ensure balance among the armies, prompting a whole new round of updates. Blech.

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Greg S
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You're going to find that scale will dictate your collection, based on space available.

There are wonderful choices in all 3 of the "standard" scales (28mm, 15mm, and 6mm). All 3 have pluses and minuses.

Here are my top 3 manufacturers:

28mm: Perry Miniatures http://www.perry-miniatures.com/

15mm: AB Miniatures http://eurekaminusa.com/default.aspx

6mm: Baccus Miniatures https://www.baccus6mm.com/

Although they are all UK manufacturers, you can find US distributors.

My favorite is 28mm, even though I don't have the space, nor the desire, to do full-sized battles. The Perry plastic line is a relatively inexpensive way to build up armies.

I have purposely NOT included manufacturers of soft plastic miniatures, such as Hat and Airfix, as they can be problematic with regards to completeness, size compatability, and ability to put up with the rigors of gaming. But if that floats your boat, charge!

Enjoy!
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Kent Reuber
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Much of the choice of rules set depends on the kinds of battles you want to play, how many players you'll have available and how much detail you want (which usually translates to playing time). I'm not a big Napoleonic gamer, but I'm a big fan of Volley & Bayonet for big battles. V&B applies to the entire black powder period. The new edition, Volley & Bayonet: Road to Glory emphasizes the Napoleonic period.

In V&B, each stand is 1 brigade, with strength points tracked on a roster (which some people don't like). Stands are supposed to be 3" square, but with 6mm figures, you can easily cut the stand size in half and play on a smaller table, meaning that you can play battles on a 3'x5' area. With V&B, you can play big battles in an afternoon even if you only have 2 players.

If you prefer a set of rules with battalions as elements, there are many to choose from.

I also like Heroics & Ros, which are noticeably smaller (closer to 5mm and less chunky).
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Enrico Viglino
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PeteyWA wrote:
nomad001 wrote:
You'll probably find the historical miniature gaming less prone to endless updates, etc ..., than the fantasy (with GW being the worst offender of all).


That's right. I was fed up with GW's incessant updating of rules and models. Evidently there was insufficient playtesting to ensure balance among the armies, prompting a whole new round of updates. Blech.



Fantasy would've been my primary minis focus (mixed with
medieval and maybe some early-modern since there could be
a lot of overlap) given the choice. Definitely NOT warhammer
stuff though - it always looked so damned silly. But, there
are fantasy minis systems out there that will never change.
There are also some good ancients/medieval rules, where all
you have to do is add the effects of the spells from your
favorite fantasy RPG, which would be my preferred route (since
I could adapt my minis system to whatever fantasy RPG I was
running, and play out massed battles from the game).
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Eric Lai
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For anyone interested, I just backed this kickstarter project:

http://kck.st/SQRe2M

Fantasy miniatures from Reaper Miniatures, a bargain really... Great for any fantasy rule set. I am just getting it for the painting exercise really. Some of the Sculpts look awesome with tonnes of detail, look at these Fire Giants!

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Barry Kendall
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Before you commit to 6 mm figures, check out Old Glory's 10mm Napoleonic line.

It is very extensive. Foot figures come five on a strip, each figure of the five individually posed and animated (Lights and gun crews are single figures). Cavalry comes with separate horses and riders/horse furniture.

The detail and scaling are outstanding. If you subscribe to the "Old Glory Army" (one year/$50), you get 40% off everything Old Glory sells.

Also, take a look at Gunner Bearden's "La Petit Armee" rules, which are fast-playing and allow one to run a corps or even an entire army as a single player. They are very enjoyable and I even played the rules using LEGO pieces as stand-ins until I had armies ready. With very few modifications, the Old Glory figs work perfectly in this system (Gunner himself used RISK figures including many conversions!).
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PeteyWA wrote:
Now I've been reading David Chandler's The Campaigns of Napoleon and those fantasies are back. Of billiards tables covered with green-painted plywood arrayed with little trees and hills and streams and buildings.

You should upgrade your fantasies to include sand tables. That way you can shoot billiards while waiting for your buddies to arrive.
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rod humble

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Hey Pete, welcome back into the fold!

You might get a more detailed set of responses here
http://theminiaturespage.com/

A good large and active Napoleonic community.

For rules I suggest picking a free set initially so you can get gaming NOW!

http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/napoleonic.html

While you are waiting for figures I suggest going down to a craft store and buying a few dozen small 1*1/5 inch wooden blocks. Spray paint half blue and half red then paint on white lines to indicate cav , inf or artillery.

Then get gaming!

best

Rod

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Warren Bruhn
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Peter, you are in Arlingon, Washinton, USA, right? The first thing that I would recommend that you do is go to and bookmark Lead Adventures Forums:

http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php

Then join the NHMGS - Northwest Historical Miniatures Gaming Society - yahoo group and facebook group. Mark out Memorial Day Weekend in your 2013 calendar and plan to attend Enfilade that weekend at the Red Lion Inn in Olympia, Washington. On the NHMGS yahoo group and facebook page post a hello and ask about miniatures in your area. I believe there are a number of players in and around Everett, Washington.

Before buying any miniatures, check around and see what others are playing. See if you can get into a miniatures gaming group with good people that you would actually want to play with. I see the first and most important issue as being who you want to spend hours and days of your time with, and the issue of what kind of toys to play with is secondary.

I would suggest finding the historical miniatures gamers first, because many of them are happy to add in some fantasy or science fiction elements. But some of the fantasy players don't find historical stuff appealing. Starting with the historical miniatures players first gives you a broader option of types of games to play.

I would not recommend getting into massed battles, with stands having multiple figures per base. I've got a couple of those types of collections, but they are a lot of work. The hot thing now in PULP and SWASHBUCKLING type games on a role playing scale. There may be 2 to 10 figurs on a side fighting out a Three Musketeers or Indiana Jones type encounter. That involves less space, fewer figures, and a huge amount of cinematic fun. Western gunfights are in that mix.

After doing some actions in that scale you could get more figures and play out skirmish scale encounters with perhaps 20 to 50 figures on each side using rules like Triumph & Tragedy. There's no need to jump into huge massed battles right away, unless that's the only thing that interests you.

Look around on Lead Adventures Forums. There is a lot of eye candy there.
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Peter Collins
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Warren Bruhn wrote:
Peter, you are in Arlingon, Washinton, USA, right? The first thing that I would recommend that you do is go to and bookmark Lead Adventures Forums:

http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php

Then join the NHMGS - Northwest Historical Miniatures Gaming Society - yahoo group and facebook group. Mark out Memorial Day Weekend in your 2013 calendar and plan to attend Enfilade that weekend at the Red Lion Inn in Olympia, Washington. On the NHMGS yahoo group and facebook page post a hello and ask about miniatures in your area. I believe there are a number of players in and around Everett, Washington.

Before buying any miniatures, check around and see what others are playing. See if you can get into a miniatures gaming group with good people that you would actually want to play with. I see the first and most important issue as being who you want to spend hours and days of your time with, and the issue of what kind of toys to play with is secondary.

I would suggest finding the historical miniatures gamers first, because many of them are happy to add in some fantasy or science fiction elements. But some of the fantasy players don't find historical stuff appealing. Starting with the historical miniatures players first gives you a broader option of types of games to play.

I would not recommend getting into massed battles, with stands having multiple figures per base. I've got a couple of those types of collections, but they are a lot of work. The hot thing now in PULP and SWASHBUCKLING type games on a role playing scale. There may be 2 to 10 figurs on a side fighting out a Three Musketeers or Indiana Jones type encounter. That involves less space, fewer figures, and a huge amount of cinematic fun. Western gunfights are in that mix.

After doing some actions in that scale you could get more figures and play out skirmish scale encounters with perhaps 20 to 50 figures on each side using rules like Triumph & Tragedy. There's no need to jump into huge massed battles right away, unless that's the only thing that interests you.

Look around on Lead Adventures Forums. There is a lot of eye candy there.


Wow, that's great, Warren. I have gamed with some of the guys at Metro Seattle Gamers before. While they are not ostensibly a miniatures-based group, there is of course a lot of crossover. I know that several of them attend Enfilade year after year.

Have heard of NHMGS as well. They do an event in Spokane or Tri-Cities too, don't they?

To answer your query, yes I am kind of leaning to the massed battles of the Napoleonic era. I will take your advice and keep my options open.

And to everyone, thanks for the great ideas! thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup all around!

[edit for spelling and punctuation]

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Pavel Hammerschmidt
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Hi Peter,

I play Black Powder at the Panzer Depot in Kirkland. Fun games and a good group of guys. Here is a list of upcomming games.

Greetings All,

Updated list of games … if you are interested in hosting a game at the shop please contact us with the game information and will add it to the calendar of games. The store can host one large game on a table up to 6’ x 12’ and three smaller games on 4’x6’ tables.

August Gaming

August 18th FOW of War Late War Tournament (sign up e-mail: info@thepanzerdepot.com)

August 25th Kampfgruppe Commander II: WW2 ground combat (2pm start time)


September Gaming

September 1st Black Powder: 28mm Napoleonic’s 1813, part 2

September 8th GMT Game – Slight change, we are now thinking of playing the new Next War: Korea game, instead of The Battle for Normandy. E-mail us back if you have a particular preference for either one.

Flames of War: Infantry Aces Campaign (http://seattlefow.wordpress.com/)

September 15th Black Powder: 100 Days - 2pm start time (3rd Annual Fix Bayonets Game Day)

September 22nd Kampfgruppe Commander II: Battle of the Bulge Campaign

September 29th Flames of War: Campaign Mega Battle (http://seattlefow.wordpress.com/)

October Gaming

October 6th Open

October 13th Kampfgruppe Commander II: Battle of the Bulge Campaign

October 20th Open

October 27th Open


Flames of War: Every Thursday night a regular group of FOW players meet at the shop between 6pm – 10pm.

If you would like to host a game, please contact us with the game information and will add it to the calendar of games.

Thank You,
John Kennedy

The Panzer Depot
11232 120th Ave NE, Suite #112
Kirkland, WA 98033
PH: (425) 823-8201
www.ThePanzerDepot.com

Store Hours
Monday – Tuesday
11am - 6pm
Wednesday – Thursday
11am - 9pm
Friday
11am - 6pm
Saturday
11am - 8pm
Sunday-closed
Any questions, PM me.
Pavel

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Peter Collins
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Brilliant! Thanks Pavel.
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Napoleonics is a tricky one for rules - our group have yet to find "the one". In order of good to bad, we have tried:

1. Piquet - might be a bit random for some, but great fun.
2. Lasalle - had some strange quirks that made attacking better than defending iirc.
3. Principles of war - Didn't really scale up from it's colonial games heritage (at which it excels btw).
4. Age of Eagles (aka Napoleonic Fire & Fury) - Has contrived reserve rule. Best to stick to ACW with Fire & Fury, which is a great rule-set for ACW.
5. Republic to empire - Overly convoluted and unrealistic. Didn't even get a play.

For 18th century you might try Maurice, the new Sam Mustafa set, which we've played a couple of times (Blenheim and Brandywine) and really enjoyed.
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Pete, for figures a good prices you might also take at look at scalehobbyist.com, or Woodrow's Toy Soldiers.
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rodvik wrote:
Hey Pete, welcome back into the fold!

You might get a more detailed set of responses here
http://theminiaturespage.com/

A good large and active Napoleonic community.

For rules I suggest picking a free set initially so you can get gaming NOW!

http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/napoleonic.html

While you are waiting for figures I suggest going down to a craft store and buying a few dozen small 1*1/5 inch wooden blocks. Spray paint half blue and half red then paint on white lines to indicate cav , inf or artillery.

Then get gaming!

best

Rod


OMG I love it!
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hipshot wrote:
rodvik wrote:
Hey Pete, welcome back into the fold!

You might get a more detailed set of responses here
http://theminiaturespage.com/

A good large and active Napoleonic community.

For rules I suggest picking a free set initially so you can get gaming NOW!

http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/napoleonic.html

While you are waiting for figures I suggest going down to a craft store and buying a few dozen small 1*1/5 inch wooden blocks. Spray paint half blue and half red then paint on white lines to indicate cav , inf or artillery.

Then get gaming!

best

Rod


OMG I love it!


This, and I also liked the Legos idea.
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David Bohnenberger
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What I wish I had was a FRIEND who was into historical minis.
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hipshot wrote:

OMG I love it!


Heh 8) I did it a few years back. I will take some pics of the blocks and put em up somewhere. They work well. Put em on a green felt mat, pour yourself a brandy and prepare to conquer europe
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Roger Hobden
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One of the most economical introductions to miniatures is probably this game:

The Complete Brigadier.

And, for the Ancients, there is of course this:

Lost Battles.
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Warren Bruhn
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PeteyWA wrote:


Have heard of NHMGS as well. They do an event in Spokane or Tri-Cities too, don't they?

To answer your query, yes I am kind of leaning to the massed battles of the Napoleonic era. I will take your advice and keep my options open.



Enfilade is the only convention hosted by NHMGS itself, as an organization, and it's the regional Pacific Northwest convention for historical miniatures. However, NHMGS conveys a lot of news, on facebook and yahoo and it's own web page, about other conventions where some miniatures are played. Looks like you just missed Dragonflight in Bellevue, WA, last weekend. Here's the NHMGS web page for listing other conventions:

http://www.nhmgs.org/conventions.html

There is a convention in March in Burnaby, BC, called Trumpeter Salute, and I think it's a mix of boardgames and miniatures, with some historicals. Here's the web page:

http://www.trumpetersalute.com/index.html

This year Trumpeter Salute took place on the same weekend as Game Storm in Vancouver, WA. That convention is large, almost 1000 attendees, but Game Storm historically was mostly about boardgames, role playing, and fantasy. This year several players ran miniatures games, and there was some historical miniatures gaming. Next year there will probably be more. Stay tuned, as the venue is big, and there is room for more miniatures to be added. Here's the web page:

http://www.gamestorm.org/

The convention in Spokane is Tactical Solutions. It's coming up in October. The web page is here:

http://tactical-solutions-gaming.tripod.com/

I can't seem to get Dragonflight's page on my computer. Past messages on the forums seem to indicate that there is more to Dragonflight than fantasy.

Before investing in 6mm, you should take a look at the "rice armies" jokes on Larry Leadhead. Also, take a look at 10mm as an alternative.

Shako, using battalion maneuver units, works pretty well for massed Napoleonics. Brigade maneuver units allow an even larger battle, and Napoleon's Battles is OK for that. Not thrilling, just OK.
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First catch your rabbit. Finding a set of rules you like is great but not if nobody around you is playing them. The bad news for those into Napoleonics is the sheer number of different rules that are out there and being played.

I'm currently really enjoying a set from a French wargaming group in Grenoble with a 'Volley and Bayonet' influence (set of rules where each unit is a brigade) but with loads of chrome added. Sadly the only copy I have seen is in French and I'm entirely reliant on my French wargaming buddy to play them... blush
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Mallet wrote:
One of the most economical introductions to miniatures is probably this game:

The Complete Brigadier.

And, for the Ancients, there is of course this:

Lost Battles.


I Vote for Complete Brigadier (Probably because i have a copy up for trade)

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PeteyWA wrote:
nomad001 wrote:
You'll probably find the historical miniature gaming less prone to endless updates, etc ..., than the fantasy (with GW being the worst offender of all).


That's right. I was fed up with GW's incessant updating of rules and models. Evidently there was insufficient playtesting to ensure balance among the armies, prompting a whole new round of updates. Blech.



No that's not it - GW are VERY up front about selling you subscription gaming. They make money by keep selling you new figures. The only way they make you use new figures is changing the base rules every 4 years, and most codexes/army books in between.

Yes it is purely for financial reasons, and yes this is why GW are one of the biggest players in the gaming market (and the biggest by an order of magnitude in mini-gaming). It's profitable for them, whereas most other companies struggle to stay afloat, and most don't - even big names like TSR, Decipher, FASA, etc.

I'm completely fine with you not liking/wanting/affording this, and it's definitely not the right game(s) for everyone, but if you are complaining about it like you had the wool pulled over your eyes, then you really didn't look remotely into the hobby first!

The term 'subscription gaming' even features on their website, and every tactics site under the sun has discussion threads on the new codexes and base games. It's part of the hobby, just like set rotation in CCG's. now it's fine if that's not for you, but then the game is not for you, pure and simple. If you picked a game not aligned with your wants and needs, then that's your issue not theirs.
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