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Subject: Paul Ryan's plan is a fairy tale rss

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Greg Michealson
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So says Reagan's former Budget Director.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/reagan-budget-di...
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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The key poinbt is the last point, that there are (in effect) two republican parties, not just in the normal sense of disagreemtn but a real gulf. There is the Repulican party that seeks to applea to (and help) the middle class, and the reblican party that seeks to appeal to (but not help) the middle class whilst helping the very rich at the expence of teh middle class.
 
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Dane Peacock
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Paul Ryan's plan is sensible, straightforward, honest, serious.

So says Erskine Bowles, Democratic co chair on President Barack Obama's National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dbzpu...


I guess it depends on which side you ask.
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Greg Michealson
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Except that most Republicans probably hold Reagan and his economic policies in higher regard than Erskine Bowles'.
 
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Chad Ellis
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Sky Knight X wrote:
I guess it depends on which side you ask.


Another difference is that Bowles asserts his position without offering support or details while Stockman goes point-by-point:

From the linked article:

Quote:
Specifically, Stockman observes, Ryan's "phony" budget plan:
- Maintains Defense spending that is nearly twice the $400 billion (adjusted for today's dollars) that General Eisenhower spent in the 1960s
- Shreds the safety net provided by $100 billion in food stamps and $300 billion in Medicaid
- Does not cut one dime from Medicare or Social Security for another decade
- Includes no serious plan to create jobs
- Radically cuts taxes on the richest Americans while eliminating tax breaks that mostly help the middle class
- Fails to even consider a "value-added sales tax," which is the only way the country can begin to climb out of its budget hole


I don't agree with all of his points, but at least he offers them.
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Ken
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Sky Knight X wrote:
Paul Ryan's plan is sensible, straightforward, honest, serious.


Only if you're willing to ignore the nearly complete lack of detail on how it could actually be implemented. I mean, it's great to talk about a massive combination of spending cuts and lowered tax rates, but the details on where the cuts fall or who gets the tax breaks aren't all that, well, detailed.

And it'd be nice if it accomplished his stated goal of reducing the deficit. The Ryan plan is worse than the administration's on this front.

So maybe we shouldn't worry about who's doing the talking and should look at the data?
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Meanwhile, with respect to Mr. No Really I Would Totally Be In Charge If I Was President's proposed budget:

Quote:
Consider that, even as we speak, Romney is running away from the unpopular bits of the Ryan budget, which delivers far less devastating cuts than what Romney is promising. Does anyone really believe that he will take office and then propose cuts that make the Ryan budget look soft on federal spending? That he will take office and, after running away from specifics during the campaign, propose what would surely be the most unpopular budget in American history?

This is simply not a credible budget plan, and Romney’s fast retreat from Ryan’s most unpopular cuts makes it even less credible. And yet Romney, who has never released the specific cuts that would make his numbers add up, repeatedly touts it on the campaign trail, and the media dutifully reports his promises to cut federal spending by more than $500 billion in 2016, and in fact to balance the budget by the end of his second term, which would require far larger cuts than what I’ve outlined here, despite the fact that everyone basically knows these cuts aren’t credible and will never happen.

I’m not sure what alternative there is, exactly, except to say, as clearly as possible, Romney’s budget plan is a fantasy, and it will never happen.
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Dane Peacock
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The OP showed how a Republican with budget experience came out against Ryan’s budget. I responded with a link to a Democrat with budget experience that spoke favorably of Ryan’s budget.

At this point, I, or anyone else that has spent an hour or two in RSP, could take a list all of the RSP personalities and predict exactly where they come down on the Ryan budget with probably a 99% accuracy.

(That makes it remarkable that two prominent national figures would have the views that they do.)

Chad responds with, "but the guy supporting my side does it with more facts." Well, I couldn’t agree more when comparing the above two links... One, a NYT op-ed, the other, a snippet of a speech.

I should have known that my post would be twisted into a debate on which detractor supplied the most facts. Frankly, I don’t care if one guy’s op-ed piece has more details than another guy’s one minute clip. Not my point, which was simply to balance out the OP’s observation in that the Dems as well as the Reps had their prominent detractors.

And then Ken quotes my quote of Bowles and reiterates exactly what Chad said.
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Dave G
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Sky Knight X wrote:
The OP showed how a Republican with budget experience came out against Ryan’s budget. I responded with a link to a Democrat with budget experience that spoke favorably of Ryan’s budget.

At this point, I, or anyone else that has spent an hour or two in RSP, could take a list all of the RSP personalities and predict exactly where they come down on the Ryan budget with probably a 99% accuracy.

(That makes it remarkable that two prominent national figures would have the views that they do.)

Chad responds with, "but the guy supporting my side does it with more facts." Well, I couldn’t agree more when comparing the above two links... One, a NYT op-ed, the other, a snippet of a speech.

I should have known that my post would be twisted into a debate on which detractor supplied the most facts. Frankly, I don’t care if one guy’s op-ed piece has more details than another guy’s one minute clip. Not my point, which was simply to balance out the OP’s observation in that the Dems as well as the Reps had their prominent detractors.

And then Ken quotes my quote of Bowles and reiterates exactly what Chad said.


To be fair, Ken did no such thing. He said that his problem with Ryan's plan was that Ryan hasn't given any detail on how it would be implemented. He's not talking about Bowles or the snippet of speech.
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Ken
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Sky Knight X wrote:
And then Ken quotes my quote of Bowles and reiterates exactly what Chad said.


Wait, what? I made a total of zero comments on whether the stuff in the OP was good, bad, or indifferent. In fact, I tend to shy away from op-eds altogether as a way of discussing anything political unless it's strategy or positioning. And I encouraged people to do the same.

What I said was that I think we'd be better off ignoring many endorsements, surrogates, or talking heads and looking for sources that actually provide data on key policy initiatives. Like the CBO, various tax policy analysis groups (though one does need to be careful about bias here, there's some good ones out there), and media reports that at least crunch some numbers.

I could give a rat's ass if Erskine Bowles thinks Paul Ryan is the best thing since sliced bread, if Reagan's former Head of OMB thinks he's Satan incarnate, or if Lady Gaga has an opinion about him. I care a great deal more whether what Paul Ryan's plans reflect about his priorities and ability to deal with the problems our country faces. And Ryan's plan is very short on details (and what details are available don't exactly impress).
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Greg Michealson
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perfalbion wrote:
Sky Knight X wrote:
And then Ken quotes my quote of Bowles and reiterates exactly what Chad said.


Wait, what? I made a total of zero comments on whether the stuff in the OP was good, bad, or indifferent. In fact, I tend to shy away from op-eds altogether as a way of discussing anything political unless it's strategy or positioning. And I encouraged people to do the same.

What I said was that I think we'd be better off ignoring many endorsements, surrogates, or talking heads and looking for sources that actually provide data on key policy initiatives. Like the CBO, various tax policy analysis groups (though one does need to be careful about bias here, there's some good ones out there), and media reports that at least crunch some numbers.

I could give a rat's ass if Erskine Bowles thinks Paul Ryan is the best thing since sliced bread, if Reagan's former Head of OMB thinks he's Satan incarnate, or if Lady Gaga has an opinion about him. I care a great deal more whether what Paul Ryan's plans reflect about his priorities and ability to deal with the problems our country faces. And Ryan's plan is very short on details (and what details are available don't exactly impress).


I linked to David Stockman's piece because Reagan has a special place in today's conservatives' hearts. Reagan is the poster boy of conservative Republican politics (but not fiscally conservative politics I presume, because he wasn't). Since Stockman was the architect of Reagan's economic policy his opinion on Ryan's budget is more relevant than Erskine Bowles'... or even Lady Gaga's.

 
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Dane Peacock
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perfalbion wrote:

I could give a rat's ass if Erskine Bowles thinks Paul Ryan is the best thing since sliced bread,


Then why quote my quote of Erskine Bowles before going on about it?

If you had made your comments without quoting my quote of Erskine, then I wouldn’t have mentioned your post at all.

 
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Daniel Edwards
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But what does Lady Gaga think about the Ryan plan? I think that is what we really all want to know.
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Dave G
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Sky Knight X wrote:
perfalbion wrote:

I could give a rat's ass if Erskine Bowles thinks Paul Ryan is the best thing since sliced bread,


Then why quote my quote of Erskine Bowles before going on about it?

If you had made your comments without quoting my quote of Erskine, then I wouldn’t have mentioned your post at all.



Ah. So your complete misunderstanding of Ken's post was because he didn't use quotes the way you anticipated he would?
 
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Ken
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Sky Knight X wrote:
Then why quote my quote of Erskine Bowles before going on about it?


Because my point is that plans that are "sensible, straightforward, honest, serious" shouldn't also be "fuzzy" or lacking in detail? While also pretty much pandering to voters (I wonder why the Medicare changes proposed won't impact anyone 55+...).

If you ask me, Mr. Bowles comments cause me to think negatively about him not because he's "crossing party lines," but because the plan he's endorsing lacks the rigor I would have expected him to demand. Far better for him to say "we do need to think about some significant, even radical, changes to our budget and the Ryan plan is a start to discuss those."

Also, if you ask me, the op-ed in the OP isn't much better. It does contain some data, but it's more about a fight over what "being conservative" should actually mean than it is anything else. I don't particularly care about that - I can about discussing what we can do to fix our problems.
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Ken
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myopia wrote:
But what does Lady Gaga think about the Ryan plan? I think that is what we really all want to know.


There's no tax deduction for meat dresses and the working-wig credit is dramatically scaled back, so she's opposed.
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Dane Peacock
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perfalbion wrote:
Sky Knight X wrote:
Then why quote my quote of Erskine Bowles before going on about it?


Because my point is that plans that are "sensible, straightforward, honest, serious" shouldn't also be "fuzzy" or lacking in detail? While also pretty much pandering to voters (I wonder why the Medicare changes proposed won't impact anyone 55+...).

If you ask me, Mr. Bowles comments cause me to think negatively about him not because he's "crossing party lines," but because the plan he's endorsing lacks the rigor I would have expected him to demand. Far better for him to say "we do need to think about some significant, even radical, changes to our budget and the Ryan plan is a start to discuss those."


So you do give a rat's ass what Erskine Bowles thinks.
 
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We need more people named Erskine.
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SpaceGhost wrote:
We need more people named Erskine.


In RSP, when the liberals are losing their argument they start criticizing the way the conservatives write. But, I agree, Erskine is one of my favorite names.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
We need more people named Erskine.


In RSP, when the liberals are losing their argument they start criticizing the way the conservatives write. But, I agree, Erskine is one of my favorite names.


In RSP, when anybody is making any comment in an argument, Tripp starts complaining that liberals are oppressing conservatives.
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Sky Knight X wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
We need more people named Erskine.


Full disclosure. Before I saw that video, I never knew Erskine even existed. I don't even know how to pronounce it. I've been going with Er-skinny.


Sadly, I know who Erskine Bowles is. That's pathetic, really, because I've also never seen a Lady GaGa video so I'm clearly not in tune with modern liberal thinking.

On the other hand, surely we can all agree on the brilliance of my favorite Erskine:

 
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Golux13 wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
We need more people named Erskine.


In RSP, when the liberals are losing their argument they start criticizing the way the conservatives write. But, I agree, Erskine is one of my favorite names.


In RSP, when anybody is making any comment in an argument, Tripp starts complaining that liberals are oppressing conservatives.


Anatomy of a post by Dan:

A. Did tripp write a post?

B. Yes.

C. Did Dan read it?

D. Yes.

E. Good. Repeat fallacy that any post Tripp writes is a complaint about liberals oppressing conservatives.

F. Does it matter if Tripp even implied that, or alluded to it, or suggested it, or if there was a faint whiff of it?

G. No.

H. Fine, cue "Tripp complains macro" anyway.

I. Go dormant until Tripp posts again.
 
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Dan Schaeffer
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DWTripp wrote:
Golux13 wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
We need more people named Erskine.


In RSP, when the liberals are losing their argument they start criticizing the way the conservatives write. But, I agree, Erskine is one of my favorite names.


In RSP, when anybody is making any comment in an argument, Tripp starts complaining that liberals are oppressing conservatives.


Anatomy of a post by Dan:

A. Did tripp write a post?

B. Yes.

C. Did Dan read it?

D. Yes.

E. Good. Repeat fallacy that any post Tripp writes is a complaint about liberals oppressing conservatives.

F. Does it matter if Tripp even implied that, or alluded to it, or suggested it, or if there was a faint whiff of it?

G. No.

H. Fine, cue "Tripp complains macro" anyway.

I. Go dormant until Tripp posts again.


Sorry, Tripp. I thought when you said that liberals were "criticizing the way the conservatives write," you were complaining about the treatment of conservatives by the liberals here, because it looked an awful lot like a non-substantive bitching post about liberals criticizing the way the conservatives write.

Obviously, in retrospect, you were congratulating and thanking liberals for their kind attention and guidance for conservative posters here in RSP. And it was totally on topic. I obviously misread it. Thanks for clearing that up.
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No Dan, you're incorrect, as is usually the case. Pointing out that RSP liberals start criticizing how their betters "write sentences" is an indication that the liberals have given up and accepted they have yet again been bested by their moral, intellectual, genetic and just-plain-better-looking conservative RSP'ers.

Only a person who is seriously depressed over their own complete inability to produce a cogent and understandable rejoinder to a conservative victory would perceive my post as a complaint.
 
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