Alexander Einich
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Having received the Conversion Kit a couple of days ago, I leafed through the heroes quickly, and was at first a little disappointed in Grey Ker's hero ability: If you perform only 1 action on your turn, then later this round you may take a second turn, during which you receive only 1 action. Your second turn must be taken after a hero's turn and before the overlord's turn.

I first went meh. soblue An ability with maybe some tactical handiness from time to time (such as remaining available to intervene if another hero misses in whatever he was doing?), but with such borderline usefulness that most of the time you forget about it. yuk

Too bad, because I liked the flexibility of his heroic feat of 1 free action and his 4/10/5 stats. I guess if you have good stats and a good heroic, you can't have such a great hero ability...

Then however I remembered that exhausted cards refresh at the beginning of turns. If he battles, Grey Ker could use cards like Mana Weave for each of his attacks if he splits his turn into two turns. Or use a Lucky Charm twice during the round. Nice.

Then I remembered that some skills also exhaust. Wait, he can open two doors in a row (or open and close one) for free with Sneaky? Or use Bushwhack twice, thus getting up to four attacks in one round? Just by splitting his turn, he could get the equivalent of seven or eight actions per round by running, Bushwhacking twice, opening two doors, and Lurking once or twice for good measure?! Holy cattleherd! surprise

ninja

I had also noticed that when a hero starts a turn fully fatigued, it can be very annoying because he can't use any stamina-costing skills that turn, as a rest only makes fatigue go away at the end of turn. Not so Grey Ker: if he rests as his first action and then graciously asks another hero to play - poof, maximum stamina available that same round before his 2nd action!

ninja

I also remembered a very annoying condition that lasts until the end of turn: Immobilized. Since the effect wears off at the end of turn, Grey Ker can get rid of it at the end of his first turn, then move freely during his second - making him as good as immune to it. cool

ninja

Obviously Grey Ker is better off not splitting his turns when he's Poisoned or Diseased, but then... He hasn't to!

Another advantage is the fact that if your OL isn't aware of all these nifty interactions, you will keep surprising him every time you use them for the first time.

There might be other combos I haven't thought of, but in any case, I've never seen such a potential of power in such a seemingly unspectacular ability.
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Ispher,

You point out some interesting possibilities in your post. Another idea might be to use "Danger Sense" twice in a row to deplete the OL's hand.
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Alexander Einich
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Good catch. Also, another ability that might be useful is the possibility to reequip at the beginning of the second turn (for instance if Grey Ker has killed a creature in his first turn and wants to move on, he could reequip more defensively with shields).

He is also immune to the penalty of Demonhide Leather (armor with which you suffer a fatigue if you perform 2 move actions on your turn).
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Robert
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A good character for the creative player. Bad for others.
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Chris J Davis
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After hearing all this, I'm convinced that this was not the intention of his ability, as it is so incredibly powerful compared to all other characters. I think the intention was just to give him a second action later in the round, rather than having him go through all the start and end of turn steps twice in a single round.
 
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Chris,

Perhaps you're right but as Ispher pointed out, some of Grey Ker's abilities are subtle. It would be interesting to learn if people are playing Grey Ker as Ispher suggested and if so, how he's doing. In practice, is he really so overpowered compared to the other heroes?

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Alexander Einich
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bleached_lizard wrote:
After hearing all this, I'm convinced that this was not the intention of his ability, as it is so incredibly powerful compared to all other characters. I think the intention was just to give him a second action later in the round, rather than having him go through all the start and end of turn steps twice in a single round.


The ability doesn't do that much at the beginning of the game, so he's not overpowered from the start like Nanok for instance. Even after he has acquired his first skill, opening two doors in one round (assuming he took Sneaky) will not happen that often - maybe once per encounter.

He starts getting really powerful with Bushwhack, but then other heroes have gained multiple attacking power too: the Berserker with Whirlwind, the Necromancer with Army of Death...

Moreover, he is in a kit with obscenely powerful monsters. Giants for instance appear in the same numbers and roll the same defense as Merriods but have +5 health and more powerful attacks (Sweep > Flail). With such monsters, hero players really need stronger heroes.

Finally, it is a good thing that nifty combos like this (of which none is completely game breaking) can be discovered by players, whatever the intent was. The discovery of combos, of cards that work well together, is one of the key components that made Magic: the Gathering such a successful game. Why not let Descent 2 have a tiny bit of that, as long as it doesn't break the campaign?
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Ispher wrote:
Finally, it is a good thing that nifty combos like this (of which none is completely game breaking) can be discovered by players, whatever the intent was.

I would argue very strongly that using Danger Sense twice each round is absolutely and definitively game breaking.

In my group we've even banned DS from the game altogether. Each hero who objected to that just had to be the OL for one evening and as a result very quickly changed his mind.
 
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n3rd wrote:
Ispher wrote:
Finally, it is a good thing that nifty combos like this (of which none is completely game breaking) can be discovered by players, whatever the intent was.

I would argue very strongly that using Danger Sense twice each round is absolutely and definitively game breaking.

In my group we've even banned DS from the game altogether. Each hero who objected to that just had to be the OL for one evening and as a result very quickly changed his mind.


How are you using it twice? It clearly says "exhaust this card", meaning it can only be used once each round.

http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/danger-sense/
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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But start of each hero turn (and GK gets effectively two turns, albeit each with only one Action) you refresh your cards.
 
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Dam the Man wrote:
But start of each hero turn (and GK gets effectively two turns, albeit each with only one Action) you refresh your cards.


Sorry - I forgot this thread was about Grey Ker.

Has this been clarified with FFG? I'm sure that the intention was just that Grey Ker could interleave his actions between the turns of the other heroes, which would be a useful ability, not that he gets to use every one of his exhaust abilities twice per round, which would clearly be overpowered.
 
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Well, don't know if anybody's asked officially, but just based on the reading of the wording, I'd allow it (and I'm an evil, crush the heroes OL laugh ).
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Ispher wrote:
There might be other combos I haven't thought of, but in any case, I've never seen such a potential of power in such a seemingly unspectacular ability.


I like it—and I'm usually the Overlord! But it seems pretty airtight to me. If it wasn't intended this way, the ability should have read:

If you perform only 1 action on your turn, then later this round you may take a second action turn, during which you receive only 1 action. Your second action turn must be taken after a hero's turn and before the overlord's turn.

There. No mention of a second turn, just the second action being deferred to later in the round.

Which isn't to suggest the ability was worded the way it is to imply this strategy. It might have just been an oversight. But without knowing, I'd argue it's the rules, and would allow it for the heroes. The sneaky bastards.

Edits: Mixing up my BBCode.
 
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Question sent to FFG.
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Question:

Quote:
Message from:
Chris Davis


E-mail:
bleachedlizard@gmail.com


Rule Question:
Grey Ker, from the Conversion Kit: Does his hero ability mean that he goes through the entire turn structure listed on the reference card whenever he splits his actions? i.e, does he get to refresh all of his skills (and therefore use them twice each round) as well as get two Re-equip steps?


Reply from Adam:

Quote:
Hi Chris,

Grey Ker does not get an entire turn structure for his second turn when using his hero ability. For his second turn, he only gets his second action.

Thanks,
Adam Sadler
Managing Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games
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Awww, boo.
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Alexander Einich
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bleached_lizard wrote:
Question:

Quote:
Message from:
Chris Davis


E-mail:
bleachedlizard@gmail.com


Rule Question:
Grey Ker, from the Conversion Kit: Does his hero ability mean that he goes through the entire turn structure listed on the reference card whenever he splits his actions? i.e, does he get to refresh all of his skills (and therefore use them twice each round) as well as get two Re-equip steps?


Reply from Adam:

Quote:
Hi Chris,

Grey Ker does not get an entire turn structure for his second turn when using his hero ability. For his second turn, he only gets his second action.

Thanks,
Adam Sadler
Managing Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games


At least Grey Ker isn't overpowered anymore...

I understand it suppresses all his start-of-turn combos, but does it suppress the end-of-turn ones? If his first turn has the full turn structure (which Adam's answer seems to imply), I suppose he can he still rest as his first action, thus regain his fatigue at the end of his first turn to have all his fatigue available for his second action? And would Immobilize still "fall off" at the end of his first turn?

Also, if he gets webbed (Immobilized) during his second action, would Immobilize not fall off at the end of his second action?

Somehow I think Grey Ker should at least get an end of turn after his second action, otherwise his turn would never end...

Or maybe he doesn't get an end of turn after his first action after all, and it comes only at the end of his second action? But if he doesn't, how could another hero's turn start if his first turn has no end?

Or does he get only one start of turn but two end of turns?
 
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I think the easiest way to play out his ability is that he gets one normal turn that can be interrupted by the other heroes. So he resolves his start of turn events, takes one action, may interrupt for other heroes, gets a second action, then resolves end of turn events. I believe this is the full intention.
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Alexander Einich
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bleached_lizard wrote:
I think the easiest way to play out his ability is that he gets one normal turn that can be interrupted by the other heroes. So he resolves his start of turn events, takes one action, may interrupt for other heroes, gets a second action, then resolves end of turn events. I believe this is the full intention.


Although it does not correspond with the wording on the card, I think this is indeed what Adam's answer implies. At least it is simple.

But now the question I asked myself when I first saw this hero comes back: what could be the point of such an ability?

Why would you create an ability that complicates the gameplay for, basically, no reason?
 
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Ispher wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
I think the easiest way to play out his ability is that he gets one normal turn that can be interrupted by the other heroes. So he resolves his start of turn events, takes one action, may interrupt for other heroes, gets a second action, then resolves end of turn events. I believe this is the full intention.


Although it does not correspond with the wording on the card, I think this is indeed what Adam's answer implies. At least it is simple.

But now the question I asked myself when I first saw this hero comes back: what could be the point of such an ability?

Why would you create an ability that complicates the gameplay for, basically, no reason?


During our campaign, there were many times the Necromancer player wanted to activate his Reanimate in between his hero's actions, and I had to keep reminding him that that wasn't allowed. If it's desirable in that situation, it's not a stretch to imagine there would be many situations where it would be desirable to split the actions of the heroes.
 
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