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Android: Netrunner» Forums » Rules

Subject: Runner decks out: Just reshuffle? rss

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Chainsaw Rabbit
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I've been reading the rules for Android: Netrunner (and re-reading them, just because I want to prove to my wife that I can get more obsessed with something), and I ran across a question.

The victory conditions are stated as thus: The first side to score 7 Agenda points wins. If the Corp runs out of cards in R&D, the Runner wins (the Corp's short-term assets have been mangled to the point where they can't function until they regroup). If the Runner is forced to discard from his grip and can't, or has a grip size of less than 0, the Corp wins (the Runner is flatlined, either as a brain-dead vegetable or a charred/bullet-ridden hunk of hamburger).

So my question is this: what happens if the Runner's stack runs out?

I couldn't find anywhere in the rules where it says "the Runner loses" or "reshuffle your heap to make a new stack." So, what happens? The Runner just makes do with what s/he with their current grip and rig, and hopes for the best?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer this!
 
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David Etherton
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The runner doesn't reshuffle, they just lose the ability to draw more cards. Obviously they'd better be really close to winning the game since they have no way to heal any damage now!

-Dave
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Chainsaw Rabbit
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Thank you, that makes sense. Just like the Corp, the Runner has finite resources at their immediate disposal. I just wish it had been a tad more explicit in the rulebook.

I imagine that in this game, if you've burned through your entire deck and haven't won, you either throw in the towel or have the mother of all Hail Mary plays waiting in your hand.

On a personal note: Traces are evil. I played hackers/deckers in Shadowrun for years; I am painfully familiar with the results of not taking proper and thorough precautions against getting traced.

-Alex
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chainsawrabbit wrote:
Thank you, that makes sense. Just like the Corp, the Runner has finite resources at their immediate disposal. I just wish it had been a tad more explicit in the rulebook.

I imagine that in this game, if you've burned through your entire deck and haven't won, you either throw in the towel or have the mother of all Hail Mary plays waiting in your hand.

On a personal note: Traces are evil. I played hackers/deckers in Shadowrun for years; I am painfully familiar with the results of not taking proper and thorough precautions against getting traced.

-Alex


It was explicit in the rulebook, as there is no rule for reshuffling.
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Paul Imboden
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chainsawrabbit wrote:
I imagine that in this game, if you've burned through your entire deck and haven't won, you either throw in the towel or have the mother of all Hail Mary plays waiting in your hand.


Or you've got the Corp against the ropes with what you've got in play.

I've won as the Runner with no draw-pile before. It was neither easy nor pretty -- had to use Snowball, for the love of -- but it got the job done.
 
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Chris Long
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byronczimmer wrote:
It was explicit in the rulebook, as there is no rule for reshuffling.


Wouldn't that mean it was implicit? whistle
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radynski wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
It was explicit in the rulebook, as there is no rule for reshuffling.


Wouldn't that mean it was implicit? whistle
I guess it's explicitly implicit
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radynski wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
It was explicit in the rulebook, as there is no rule for reshuffling.


Wouldn't that mean it was implicit? whistle


Yes, thank you.

Regardless, without a rule stating you do something, you can't do it.

The presumption (shuffling cards and reforming the stack) is from other games where you do that - and in those games, such a rule for reforming the draw stack is always in the game.
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Milan Mašát
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byronczimmer wrote:
Regardless, without a rule stating you do something, you can't do it.

Although I agree with no shuffling of deck, I have strong reservations about this statement.
Players can breathe. They can shuffle cards in they hands. Both not covered by the rules.
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James W
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Vodnyk wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Regardless, without a rule stating you do something, you can't do it.

Although I agree with no shuffling of deck, I have strong reservations about this statement.
Players can breathe. They can shuffle cards in they hands. Both not covered by the rules.


That's just a silly example. Breathing is not covered by the ruleset because it's not a mechanic of the game.

You know what else isn't in the ruleset?
- What time of day we're allowed to play
- Which cardinal direction the seats must be facing if we're Runner/Corp
- If we need to be wearing shoes

Re-ordering the cards in the HQ/Grip is implicitly covered since you can choose to install/play any card from the HQ/Grip, not just the first one you drew.

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Milan Mašát
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kingjames01 wrote:
Vodnyk wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Regardless, without a rule stating you do something, you can't do it.

Although I agree with no shuffling of deck, I have strong reservations about this statement.
Players can breathe. They can shuffle cards in they hands. Both not covered by the rules.


That's just a silly example.

I agree, but I do not have the strength to figure up better one.
Quote:

Re-ordering the cards in the HQ/Grip is implicitly covered since you can choose to install/play any card from the HQ/Grip, not just the first one you drew.

Picking a card from a set is quite different than shuffling. I will personally shuffle cards each time after I draw a new one, although in rules is nothing like that. And I think that I can do that, but I can be wrong. Picking card from HQ at random could be also done without randomising corps hand (a dice roll perhaps?).
Is in the rules written that you can shuffle hand to cover tracks to runner? No. Will everybody do it? Yes. byronczimmer's statement disproved.
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James W
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Vodnyk wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:

Re-ordering the cards in the HQ/Grip is implicitly covered since you can choose to install/play any card from the HQ/Grip, not just the first one you drew.

Picking a card from a set is quite different than shuffling. I will personally shuffle cards each time after I draw a new one, although in rules is nothing like that. And I think that I can do that, but I can be wrong. Picking card from HQ at random could be also done without randomising corps hand (a dice roll perhaps?).
Is in the rules written that you can shuffle hand to cover tracks to runner? No. Will everybody do it? Yes. byronczimmer's statement disproved.


I don't understand what you're trying to say so let me write what I think you mean and you can correct me if I'm wrong.

- You draw a card from R&D/Stack into HQ/Grip.
- You shuffle R&D/Stack.
- You do this every time.

This isn't allowed by the rules.

You are required to shuffle at the beginning of the game and your opponent is allowed to shuffle your cards after you are done.

You are also required to shuffle whenever a card's effect tells you to. In this case, if I were your opponent and I thought you were shady, I'd insist on taking my right to shuffle your cards after you again.

You are not permitted to just shuffle whenever you want. If you were a cheater, then you can put cards that you need at the top or cards you don't want at the bottom.

If you just shuffle whenever you want, you'd force me to shuffle your cards every time you do. That's just a waste of time and slows down the game.

It is not allowed.



Alternate summary:
- You draw a card from R&D/Stack into HQ/Grip.
- You shuffle HQ/Grip.
- You do this every time.

Shuffling your HQ/Grip is implicitly allowed because order does not matter. I've already said that. Since your premise is incorrect, your conclusion is not logically valid and you are disproven.

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Vodnyk wrote:

Is in the rules written that you can shuffle hand to cover tracks to runner? No. Will everybody do it? Yes. byronczimmer's statement disproved.


No, the rules are written that HQ draws are random. You are implementing one way to keep them random at all times. Others may shuffle (the cards in HQ) immediately before the access. Regardless, the draw is random. That is the important rule.

You are not allowed to shuffle R&D except at the beginning of a game and when told to by a card effect. Order is required to be maintained in that set of cards due to Runner accesses and cards like Precognition. That is also in the rules.

I would have no issue with you 'shuffling' your cards in HQ as you like, as it is a set of cards in which order need not be maintained. I might wonder about your nervousness, as my standard practice is to put cards face down behind HQ if it's not actively my turn.

Breathing is not a game action. Reforming your draw deck is a game action. The latter, by its omission, is not permitted within the game space. The former, by its omission, is simply a good idea that luckily is an autonomic function.
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Robbie M.
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kingjames01 wrote:
If we need to be wearing shoes

Ha-ha, gamer funk. That's actually in the rules...unsportsmanlike conduct.
 
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Milan Mašát
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byronczimmer wrote:
I would have no issue with you 'shuffling' your cards in HQ as you like, as it is a set of cards in which order need not be maintained.

That is not written in rules. That is what I want to point out.
Example: Corp draws a card. Hacker wants to remember which was card (so he can deduce when you use it). If you shuffle HQ (which is NOT allowed by rules) you cancel his attempt to track it. You just violated your rule:
Quote:
without a rule stating you do something, you can't do it.

Which I want to disprove.

kingjames01 wrote:
Shuffling your HQ/Grip is implicitly allowed because order does not matter. I've already said that.

The order in which you play cards from HQ does not matter, but this does not mean that the order does not matter at all! If you did not shuffle cards, the hacker can track them, giving him a big advantage. So you still repeat something that is not truth.
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James W
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Vodnyk wrote:

byronczimmer wrote:
I would have no issue with you 'shuffling' your cards in HQ as you like, as it is a set of cards in which order need not be maintained.

That is not written in rules. That is what I want to point out.
Example: Corp draws a card. Hacker wants to remember which was card (so he can deduce when you use it). If you shuffle HQ (which is NOT allowed by rules) you cancel his attempt to track it. You just violated your rule:
Quote:
without a rule stating you do something, you can't do it.

Which I want to disprove.

kingjames01 wrote:
Shuffling your HQ/Grip is implicitly allowed because order does not matter. I've already said that.

The order in which you play cards from HQ does not matter, but this does not mean that the order does not matter at all! If you did not shuffle cards, the hacker can track them, giving him a big advantage. So you still repeat something that is not truth.


What are you talking about???

A:NR Rulebook page 18 wrote:

HQ: The Runner accesses one random card from HQ and any upgrades in its root. Any cards the Runner does not score or trash return to HQ.


What you're saying is not allowed.

So, if the Runner must access one RANDOM card, how do you ensure that you follow this rule?

Do we stipulate that:
- the Runner is FORBIDDEN to remember which card was drawn
- the Runner is FORBIDDEN to track the cards
- the Runner is FORBIDDEN to look at the HQ at all

or ... maybe the Corp can shuffle the HQ?

What you're saying is incorrect. You're arguing about nothing now. Just stop.

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I'm going to try to see this from Vodnyk's perspective.

Runner has just run on R&D, he saw an Operation (lets go with Scorched Earth because I'm feeling like that right now) and couldn't trash it, but it's the top card of R&D.

Runner ends their turn and the Corp takes theirs, drawing the seen card Scorched Earth into HQ. For whatever reason, the Corp has to discard at the end of their turn.

If the Corp is permitted to obfuscate the location of the drawn card, then the Runner doesn't know what went into the Archive. If the Corp is not permitted to obfuscate the location of the drawn card within HQ, then the Runner will know, at a minimum, if the seen card did or did not get Archived.

So lets check some terms:
(from glossary)
Archives: The Corporation's trash pile. A central server.

(from page 6)
Archives- This is the Corporation’s trash pile. Archives is
kept adjacent to R&D. This is where Corporation cards are
placed when they are trashed or discarded. Cards in
Archives are inactive.
Some cards enter Archives faceup, and some cards enter
Archives facedown. Facedown cards in Archives should be
oriented horizontally so that the Runner can easily see them.
Both the Corporation and Runner may look through the
faceup cards stored in Archives at any time, and do not need to
maintain the order of its cards while doing so. The Corporation
can also look at the facedown cards in Archives at any time; the
Runner cannot.

(from page 13)
Trashed cards go to Archives faceup if they are rezzed, and facedown if they are unrezzed.

(from page 14)
Cards discarded from HQ are always sent to Archives
facedown, regardless of whether they have been previously
accessed by the Runner
.

AHA! The rules indicate that the card is put into the Trash face down even if previously accessed (in this case, via the R&D run).

-=-=-

And concerning HQ accesses:
(page 18)
HQ: The Runner accesses one random card from HQ and any
upgrades in its root. Any cards the Runner does not score or
trash return to HQ.

-=-=-

So the crux of the question is if the Runner is allowed to track the location of a card within HQ to determine it's identity.

My opinion is an emphatic NO. A card is revealed only during the access or reveal, and then it is again hidden. Further, I believe the Corp is allowed to obfuscate card identity within HQ. Why do I think that? Because HQ accesses are required to be random and an attempt by the Runner to alter that would be against the rules. Indeed, by that logic, the Corp is obligated to keep their HQ randomized per your suggestion to prevent such chicanery on the Runner's behalf.

Do we need a FAQ for this?
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Milan Mašát
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byronczimmer wrote:
I'm going to try to see this from Vodnyk's perspective.

Thanks. More extreme case of HQ tracking is when you access ICE in R&D and then you can see where it was installed. (Which you CAN if corp has no card HQ, draw and install directly)

Quote:
So the crux of the question is if the Runner is allowed to track the location of a card within HQ to determine it's identity.
My opinion is an emphatic NO.

As do I think, but it is not by the rules. Which is my point all the time.

Quote:
Do we need a FAQ for this?
I hope not. But on the second thought you can never be safe from rule layers.
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Jeremy Owens
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I don't think Milan is arguing that the runner should be allowed to track the cards in HQ.
He's trying to make a case against "without a rule stating you do something, you can't do it." and stating that because the rules do not explicitly state you can shuffle HQ, that would imply the runner could be able to track by the definition of the rules. I'm 99% sure Milan agress that the runner tracking HQ is not intended by the game. He was just using "Shuffling of HQ" as an example against "Without a rule stating you can do something, you can't do it." mainly because someone mentioned it.

The fact is that the rules of the game don't explicitly handle the issue of an empty Stack for the Runner. Empty R&D is addressed because it's tied to a endgame condition. I'd bet good money that an FFG errata or FAQ in the future will explicitly handle the game state of an empty Stack.

However, to the OP, I can say with a high level of confidence that when the runner's stack is empty, he/she loses the ability to draw cards as an action, mainly because:
a) This is how it was done in Classic Netrunner and any differences with the new system that been specifically addressed
b) Almost any game that includes the reshuffling of a discard pile when the draw pile empty states it in the rules, whether it be a deckbuilder like dominion or the train draw in TtR

Edit: Guess Milan didn't need an ally as he addressed the issues while I was typing.

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kingjames01 wrote:
A:NR Rulebook page 18 wrote:

HQ: The Runner accesses one random card from HQ and any upgrades in its root. Any cards the Runner does not score or trash return to HQ.


What you're saying is not allowed.

Nice statement, but I do not see that in the cited rulebook.

Quote:
So, if the Runner must access one RANDOM card, how do you ensure that you follow this rule?

We usually just say number and the opponent counts down. Or roll the die. Or lay down the cards, throw a coin up, and when id lands is your card. There are even more silly or more serious way how to choose by random. There is not just the draw.

Quote:
Do we stipulate that:
- the Runner is FORBIDDEN to remember which card was drawn
- the Runner is FORBIDDEN to track the cards
- the Runner is FORBIDDEN to look at the HQ at all

or ... maybe the Corp can shuffle the HQ?

Both seems valid, at least one should be in the rules (I prefer the second), but none is. Sorry I do not see it there. If you take it as a custom in CCG/LCG community is not a rule.

Quote:
What you're saying is incorrect. You're arguing about nothing now. Just stop.

What you say are just angry statements. I do not want to argue anymore. As you wish my lord.

PS:My posts were directed to byronczimmer from the very beginning, who seems to see my point. This has gone too far.
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malhaku wrote:
Guess Milan didn't need an ally...

Actually you state my point much better than me. I really could use an native speaking ally, because I feel my English has more than few holes.
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Vodnyk wrote:

As do I think, but it is not by the rules. Which is my point all the time.


It is derivable from the rules.

If you want to say 'I won an internet argument' after we agree on the results, that's fine.

Quote:
Quote:
Do we need a FAQ for this?
I hope not. But on the second thought you can never be safe from rule layers.


If that's a dig at me, wow, ya got me.
I learned rules lawyering from the best of them as a defense against willful misinterpretation of the rules or arguments such as this.
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Vodnyk wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
A:NR Rulebook page 18 wrote:

HQ: The Runner accesses one random card from HQ and any upgrades in its root. Any cards the Runner does not score or trash return to HQ.


What you're saying is not allowed.

Nice statement, but I do not see that in the cited rulebook.


A:NR Rulebook page 18...

Vodnyk wrote:

Quote:
So, if the Runner must access one RANDOM card, how do you ensure that you follow this rule?

We usually just say number and the opponent counts down. Or roll the die. Or lay down the cards, throw a coin up, and when id lands is your card. There are even more silly or more serious way how to choose by random. There is not just the draw.


Sure, do it however you want. That part doesn't matter.

If you agree that it must be RANDOM, then clearly, the player who is choosing the card should not know with certainty, which card they are selecting. That necessitates the ability to re-organize the HQ/Grip.

Vodnyk wrote:

Quote:
Do we stipulate that:
- the Runner is FORBIDDEN to remember which card was drawn
- the Runner is FORBIDDEN to track the cards
- the Runner is FORBIDDEN to look at the HQ at all

or ... maybe the Corp can shuffle the HQ?

Both seems valid, at least one should be in the rules (I prefer the second), but none is. Sorry I do not see it there. If you take it as a custom in CCG/LCG community is not a rule.


Now, you're just being obtuse so you can stick to your points.

Vodnyk wrote:

Quote:
What you're saying is incorrect. You're arguing about nothing now. Just stop.

What you say are just angry statements. I do not want to argue anymore. As you wish my lord.

PS:My posts were directed to byronczimmer from the very beginning, who seems to see my point. This has gone too far.


They're not angry. If you're trying to continue a discussion then do so.

We all know what the original intent was. All you want to do is argue semantics. Is something allowed? Does the rulebook explicitly say so? Is it implied?

Vodnyk wrote:

AHA! Even though I know what you're implying, what you actually said isn't 100% precise so I'm just going to argue about it. Furthermore, my own argument is invalid because it's been proven wrong but I'm still going to try and find ways around it because he was wrong. WRONG!!! I know he was wrong. Trust me guys.


 
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And note...

This ruleset isn't perfect as is - we already unearthed another discrepancy which is that the term 'in play' is never actually defined...

Again, it's derivable, but never defined.

I'm sure we'll find others, and the important part is to keep in mind we're trying to define a common understanding of how to play the game and enjoy ourselves doing it.

I think I've said my peace and I understand Vodnyk's perspective too, and the nice thing is I think we agree on the outcome.
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I added the following to the FAQ:

Question: What happens when the Runner draws the last card from their Stack?
Answer: The Runner no longer has the ability to draw cards from their Stack.
The Runner does not lose the game like the Corp would, but will not be able to bring new cards into their hand via a 'Draw' action.
The Runner does not reform their Stack by shuffling their Heap (as is sometimes done in other games).
Thread: Runner decks out: Just reshuffle?
___

Question: Is the Corp permitted to obfuscate the cards in HQ?
Answer: Yes. Cards which are not currently rezzed are not revealed to the Runner, even if previously revealed due to an Access (on R&D or HQ) or due to a card effect.
In order to keep hidden information hidden, the Corp is allowed to and encouraged to periodically shuffle the cards in HQ to prevent card tracking by the Runner.
The Corp is encouraged to shuffle the cards in HQ before any Access into HQ by the Runner to ensure that the Access is Random.
To protect the hidden information of the game and prevent the Runner from card tracking, the Corp is encouraged to shuffle the cards in HQ prior to installing a card.
To protect the hidden information of the game and prevent the Runner from card tracking, the Corp is encouraged to shuffle the cards in HQ prior to discarding/trashing cards from HQ. This does not mean that the discard/trashing is random, but that the Runner can not track which card has been Archived.
Thread: Runner decks out: Just reshuffle?
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