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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Timing Question: Defense Roll and American Hero event rss

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Scott Smith
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A broken American unit is making a defense roll. The defense roll is higher than moral, but triggers event. The event spawns a US hero to be placed in any American hex and unbreak a unit in that hex.

We weren't sure how to play this. There are two options as we saw:
1. The Hero arrives in the hex taking fire. Unbreaks the unit in the hex. At the point we weren't sure what happened. The unbroken unit had a different moral than the broken. So which moral is used to determine the defense strength? Also, should the hero have to resolve a defense roll as well?
2. The hero arrives to where a broken unit just died. We really weren't sure why the fire would be resolved before the event trigger finished though.

Of course the hero could go to any other friendly controlled hex. We just weren't sure how it would play out if he was placed at that one particular hex.

Any help from the experts?
 
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Justin Heimburger
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Option 1 is the correct one. Time stops, so to speak, during Event resolution.

Once you make your defense roll, the result is locked in. So if the defending unit was broken, that morale is what you would have used for the defense roll. The event that brings the hero into play could rally the broken unit, so you'd resolve the event before applying the results of the fire attack, which in this case sounds like a broken unit. It would have broken and been eliminated it, but the hero rallied the unit, so it would re-break. Better a broken unit than a dead one!

Cheers!
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Richard Pardoe
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ChemEng wrote:
1. The Hero arrives in the hex taking fire. Unbreaks the unit in the hex. At the point we weren't sure what happened. The unbroken unit had a different moral than the broken. So which moral is used to determine the defense strength? Also, should the hero have to resolve a defense roll as well?

Feeling a bit like teaching one to fish instead of handing out sashimi platters, let me just mention that...

The third Important under 1.9.1 spells out what to do to answer your first question.

As for the hero making a defense roll, the answer is found under O20.3.4 (first sentence).
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William Garramone
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juheimbu wrote:
Option 1 is the correct one. Time stops, so to speak, during Event resolution.

Once you make your defense roll, the result is locked in. So if the defending unit was broken, that morale is what you would have used for the defense roll. The event that brings the hero into play could rally the broken unit, so you'd resolve the event before applying the results of the fire attack, which in this case sounds like a broken unit. It would have broken and been eliminated it, but the hero rallied the unit, so it would re-break. Better a broken unit than a dead one!

Cheers!
But does the Hero now also have to make a defense roll as well? (The other part of his question).
 
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William Garramone
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Ahh yes, it would seem that a Hero would indeed have to make a Defense Roll if one only read the third 'IMPORTANT' box under [1.9.1]. But the first sentence of [O 20.3.4] makes it very plain that a Hero would NOT have to make a Defense Roll.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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Keesvanloomacklin wrote:
Ahh yes, it would seem that a Hero would indeed have to make a Defense Roll if one only read the third 'IMPORTANT' box under [1.9.1].

Can I ask how you draw this conclusion? I believe the third Important under 1.9.1 says absolutely nothing about whether or not the Hero needs to make a defense roll.
 
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Scott Smith
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juheimbu wrote:
Option 1 is the correct one. Time stops, so to speak, during Event resolution.

Once you make your defense roll, the result is locked in. So if the defending unit was broken, that morale is what you would have used for the defense roll. The event that brings the hero into play could rally the broken unit, so you'd resolve the event before applying the results of the fire attack, which in this case sounds like a broken unit. It would have broken and been eliminated it, but the hero rallied the unit, so it would re-break. Better a broken unit than a dead one!

Cheers!


Just to be clear: it is possible to have a fire attack that is greater than the morale shown for the unit+cover+leadership, but not break the unit then?

In the game we played, the broken unit had morale 9. The unbroken side had morale 8. Cover and leadership were both 0. So an attack strength of 16 could be defended with a defense roll of 7 with an event that triggered Hero. Even though the newly unbroken unit would have a defense of 15 which is less than 16?

(I can't remember if the unbroken morale was 8 or 7. Either way, this illustrates the point.)
 
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Richard Pardoe
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ChemEng wrote:
Just to be clear: it is possible to have a fire attack that is greater than the morale shown for the unit+cover+leadership, but not break the unit then?

You consider the morale+command+cover at the time the roll was made and decide the result then. Do not go back and recalculate the result should the morale, command, or cover change as the result of an EVENT! trigger that is implemented as a result of the roll. That is the essence of the third IMPORTANT under 1.91 - the die result is locked in but not implemented until the trigger is resolved.

At the time, you made the FIRE DEFENSE ROLL, the result was UNIT BREAKS. Pause the game to resolve the event. In this case, place the Hero and rally a unit. Now continue the game and implement the die roll result that was determined previously.

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Stacey Hager
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For the greenhorn players out there, here is a breakdown of the situation as given by the original post: The result at the end of the sequence is that the target unit will be unbroken with a supressed marker.

1. Attack value on target hex is 16. After the defense roll with an event trigger is revealed, the defense value is locked in at 16 (9 unit moral + a 7 roll, no terrain cover or leader bonus).

2. Gameflow pauses to allow the event to occur before anything else happens. Hero event is pulled.

3. At this point the hero event occurs as such:

(When this Event occurs, if the receiving player’s Hero unit [E58.1] is not already on the map, he must place it into any friendly hex. If he does, he may Rally [3.2.5] one broken unit in that placement hex.)

4. Hero appears, rallies the broken unit.

5. Gameflow resumes. The defense roll value is locked in. So it is still a 16 value attack vs. a 16 value defense. Unit ends up unbroken with a supression marker.


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