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Subject: Ketchup 5.0: This is not a Joke rss

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Nick Bentley
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You're not going to believe this, but the rules have changed. Again. I'm serious. It's not my fault though, as you will understand when you read this.
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Richard Ghilardi
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Hi Nick,

I love your game. And the latest revision makes it better yet. I know this seems like a bad time to say this, but I would like to suggest a slight rewording of Rule 2 to improve the clarity.

As it stands Rule 2 reads:
Quote:
If the largest group on the board (regardless of color) is larger at the end of your turn than at the beginning, your opponent may drop up to 3 stones on her next turn.


My suggested revision:
Quote:
If the largest group at the end of your turn is larger than the largest group at the beginning of your turn (regardless of color), your opponent may drop up to 3 stones on her next turn.


Rule 2, as you have written it, seems ambiguous to me. It could mean (unlikely) exactly what my revised rule says. Or it could mean (more likely) the following:

1) At the beginning of your turn identify the largest group on the board.
2) Play your stone(s).
3) If the group identified in step 1 is now larger, your opponent may drop up to 3 stones on her next turn.
4) But if you've added your stone(s) to some other group on the board so as to make that group larger than the group identified in step 1, then the protasis of Rule 2, as it now stands, is not satisfied and your opponent may not drop up to 3 stones.
5) This is so because the subject of the protasis refers specifically to a particular group. The rest of the conditional tells us what may or may not happen to just that group (identified in step 1) and has no reference to any increase made to any other group on the board.
6) By contrast, the revised rule refers generally to "the largest group at the end of your turn" (whichever group that may be) and to "the largest group at the beginning of your turn" (whichever group that may be).

I don't know. I could be wrong. I could be misreading you completely.

Does your rule mean:
A) No more nor less than the revised rule.
B) Points 1-5 above adequately explain the meaning of Rule 2.
C) Neither of the above.

If your answer is C, could you please give me a further explanation of your rule?
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Nick Bentley
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Your rephrasing is correct. Thanks. I'll modify it when I get home tonight.
 
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Christian K
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6.0?
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Richard Ghilardi
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Muemmelmann wrote:
6.0?


Now I feel bad. Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut and just left well enough alone instead of posting my half incoherent ramblings.

Sorry everyone.
 
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Nick Bentley
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Don't feel bad! I can definitely use the help. This whole series has become like some bizarre practical joke. But I swear it's just me being an idiot.
 
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Scott Nelson
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I take it the score track is to keep track of the largest group for each player? You might want to mention that in the rules.
 
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Nick Bentley
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ropearoni4 wrote:
I take it the score track is to keep track of the largest group for each player? You might want to mention that in the rules.


That is mentioned in the official rules at the main Ketchup page (where the ambiguity discussed above has now been addressed).
 
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Benedikt Rosenau
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Make it 5.1. now.
 
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Martin Grider
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Oecolampad wrote:
As it stands Rule 2 reads:
Quote:
If the largest group on the board (regardless of color) is larger at the end of your turn than at the beginning, your opponent may drop up to 3 stones on her next turn.


My suggested revision:
Quote:
If the largest group at the end of your turn is larger than the largest group at the beginning of your turn (regardless of color), your opponent may drop up to 3 stones on her next turn.


I'm still seeing the first version on this page. Is that the "official rules" page? Thanks!
 
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Nick Bentley
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yeah, after even more testing I went back to that version, because it looked like a pie rule would be needed for the 5.0 version. Embarrassing but true.
 
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Martin Grider
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I guess I'm not really seeing how the wording change suggested by Oecolampad would have anything to do with the pie rule..?
 
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Richard Ghilardi
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Yeah, I agree with grid. I don't see how one wording requires the pie rule and the other does not. But then, I'm not an abstract-game-designing genius like Nick is. (That's a most sincere compliment, BTW.)

Oeco
 
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Nick Bentley
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Oecolampad wrote:
Yeah, I agree with grid. I don't see how one wording requires the pie rule and the other does not. But then, I'm not an abstract-game-designing genius like Nick is. (That's a most sincere compliment, BTW.)

Oeco


Haha. I'm a pretty subpar genius, as I think I misunderstood what you're talking about. I thought you were talking about the version 5.0 rules, which were based on a substantive rule change suggested by Steven Metzger. That change turned out not to work for me because it required a pie rule, and possibly something else that I won't get into here. So I went back to the original rules.

But about the rephrasing I totally agree! I thought I'd changed it! I guess I convinced myself I had when I hadn't. Sigh. Ok, NOW I'm gonna go change it for real.

[edit] and DONE

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