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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Surrender level Limit ? rss

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René van den Assem
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Guys,

Yesterday we played scenario 40 (the biggy in the Stalingrad factory complex). The Russian surrender level starts at 20. Due to an event the Russian surrender level raises 1.

The trackcard ends at surrender level 20 however we could nowhere find there to ba a maximum surrender level, and we also concluded that at games first edition this scenario was not yet published so it could be that no one ever expected the surrender level to get so high so we interpreted that it would be okay to raise it to 21 (and due to the same event later in the game to 22).

Any comments on the (il)legality of our sollution ?
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Chuck Meeks
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That's how I would have played it! Nothing says that there is a limit and the golden rule is to interpret literally.
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Mark Buetow
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Komodo wrote:
That's how I would have played it! Nothing says that there is a limit and the golden rule is to interpret literally.


But literally here is that the Surrender Track goes to 20 and that's it. And there is no marker with a "20+" for it.

Just a counterpoint. Interesting corner case.
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René van den Assem
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Malacandra wrote:
Komodo wrote:
That's how I would have played it! Nothing says that there is a limit and the golden rule is to interpret literally.


But literally here is that the Surrender Track goes to 20 and that's it. And there is no marker with a "20+" for it.

Just a counterpoint. Interesting corner case.


That was also my point the max is 20 !
But ....
I must admit that this and my as yet unanswered issue with overstacked entry under the Stalingrad rules are the ONLY 2 things we have come across in playing more than 2 years worth of Combat Commander we could not figure out with the rules and a little help on the forum here
 
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Mark Buetow
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RenevdAssem wrote:
Malacandra wrote:
Komodo wrote:
That's how I would have played it! Nothing says that there is a limit and the golden rule is to interpret literally.


But literally here is that the Surrender Track goes to 20 and that's it. And there is no marker with a "20+" for it.

Just a counterpoint. Interesting corner case.


That was also my point the max is 20 !
But ....
I must admit that this and my as yet unanswered issue with overstacked entry under the Stalingrad rules are the ONLY 2 things we have come across in playing more than 2 years worth of Combat Commander we could not figure out with the rules and a little help on the forum here


Well, you're halfway there as the overstacking question was answered.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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RenevdAssem wrote:
Due to an event the Russian surrender level raises 1.


The actual rule in the rule book doesn't actually say this. Instead, E54 Elan states:

When this Event occurs, the receiving player moves his Surrender marker into the next higher space on his side of the Casualty Track.

Going from memory, I believe the card text is slightly different from this. But I consider the card text as a reminder or hint to the event's impact. The full and actual event is the rule text written in the rulebook.

I guess that is a long winded way of saying...if the Surrender marker is already at 20, there is no next higher space, so the Surrender marker doesn't move.
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René van den Assem
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Malacandra wrote:
RenevdAssem wrote:
Malacandra wrote:
Komodo wrote:
That's how I would have played it! Nothing says that there is a limit and the golden rule is to interpret literally.


But literally here is that the Surrender Track goes to 20 and that's it. And there is no marker with a "20+" for it.

Just a counterpoint. Interesting corner case.


That was also my point the max is 20 !
But ....
I must admit that this and my as yet unanswered issue with overstacked entry under the Stalingrad rules are the ONLY 2 things we have come across in playing more than 2 years worth of Combat Commander we could not figure out with the rules and a little help on the forum here


Well, you're halfway there as the overstacking question was answered.


Yep noticed it and very gratefull
 
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René van den Assem
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RPardoe wrote:
RenevdAssem wrote:
Due to an event the Russian surrender level raises 1.


The actual rule in the rule book doesn't actually say this. Instead, E54 Elan states:

When this Event occurs, the receiving player moves his Surrender marker into the next higher space on his side of the Casualty Track.

Going from memory, I believe the card text is slightly different from this. But I consider the card text as a reminder or hint to the event's impact. The full and actual event is the rule text written in the rulebook.

I guess that is a long winded way of saying...if the Surrender marker is already at 20, there is no next higher space, so the Surrender marker doesn't move.


Seems very logigal but:

The text on the card says:
Increase your surrender level by one

The text in the rulesbook says:
When this Event occurs, the receiving player moves his Surrender marker into the next higher space on his side of the Casualty Track

However 1.0 Golden Rule:
Some card effects conflict with one or more rules within this booklet(example). When this occurs, the card effect always takes precedence.

Now don't get me wrong I mean, normally it is no problem at all and it is only in 1 scenario in all the scenario's we have come across that this might be a thing but given the number of units on the map it might actually be a vital thing nearing game end (in this particular scenario)

We just want to know if we did the correct thing with going to 22 with the surrender level. Normally everything is self explanatory but this one ...?
 
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Mark Buetow
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But note E42, the first general ruler for events:

Quote:
Ignore any portion of an Event that is impossible to fulfill given current game conditions, while performing those parts that are possible, if any.


Again, it's a corner case that might benefit from an official ruling but you can't really carry it out so I'd say it just doesn't apply.
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Richard Pardoe
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RenevdAssem wrote:
However 1.0 Golden Rule:
Some card effects conflict with one or more rules within this booklet(example). When this occurs, the card effect always takes precedence.

And the effect of the Elan event is what is written in the rulebook. Or are you insisting that the card text always takes precedence over the rules as written in the rulebook?

If the effect written under E54 were to conflict with another rule, the Golden Rule states that E54 takes precedence.

RenevdAssem wrote:
We just want to know if we did the correct thing with going to 22 with the surrender level. Normally everything is self explanatory but this one ...?


OK, since my previous logic wasn't compelling enough for you, let me ask: How do you go to 21 or 22? If I read about unit elimination and the casualty track, I find...

4.2 Casualty Track....Whenever a non-Hero unit is eliminated, it (...) is placed on the casualty track....Units are stacked one per numbered space ....occupying those spaces in lowest-to-highest numberical order.

I don't see a numbered space 21 or 22 on my track. So how do I place a unit on the next numbered space after 20?

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Chadwik
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20 max.
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René van den Assem
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Chad Jensen wrote:
20 max.


Thanks Chad
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