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Subject: First play questions... rss

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Soylent Green
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So we just muddied our way through our first play last night - just the initial first encounter... and we are left scratching our heads and are hoping that it's simply an issue of being the first mission.

I played Norad - and was able to win REALLY easily.

(PS - holy crap setup takes forever... I have a lot of play in Descent first edition - which is a hell of a setup - but I was surprised at how long it took!)

Ok - the question is - when you activate a character and give it an order token - did we play it right that you can play as many points as you want in that one activation as are legally possible. Example being that Frank Einstein can only have 5 points into actions each round (forgive me if I'm using any incorrect terminology and just look at idea of what is going on) - I had the order token that allowed for 1 move and 4 attacks I think it was - did we play it right that I could move and then attack 4 times?

This was also how I won - I was able to open the way with Frank - and then on my next activation had a 3 move order - so she could move out 18 spaces through the gap created by Frank.

Overall - we are interested in playing more - but we just were scratching our heads at how easily I just ran out the door and won it. (It didn't help that I found her in the first room I looked in - on the first turn.)

Thanks!

(Some of it will benefit from me sitting down and reading the rules again - AFTER our first play last night.)
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Chris Salvato
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SoylentRed wrote:
So we just muddied our way through our first play last night - just the initial first encounter... and we are left scratching our heads and are hoping that it's simply an issue of being the first mission.

I played Norad - and was able to win REALLY easily.


The first mission is a little swingy; luck with placement or mistakes by Salem can make this very easy.


SoylentRed wrote:
(PS - holy crap setup takes forever... I have a lot of play in Descent first edition - which is a hell of a setup - but I was surprised at how long it took!)


Indeed it does, but for the "full" game - SAGS - the Setup is actually part of the tactical play and the game lasts long enough to make the time spent board building worthwhile. I beleive a BGGer has uploaded scans of the tutorial maps pre-assembled; you could print those and use them to speed up the map building while playing through the tutorials.

SoylentRed wrote:
Ok - the question is - when you activate a character and give it an order token - did we play it right that you can play as many points as you want in that one activation as are legally possible. Example being that Frank Einstein can only have 5 points into actions each round (forgive me if I'm using any incorrect terminology and just look at idea of what is going on) - I had the order token that allowed for 1 move and 4 attacks I think it was - did we play it right that I could move and then attack 4 times?


Yes, that is correct. If Franck had an order tile with a 1-move and 4-close combat, you can assign him both orders in a single activation round, spending 5 command points (CP) to power that.

Above you said "attack 4 times." Keep in mind that a 4-Close Combat order is a single attack roll with 3 bonus dice, not 4 separate Close Combat attacks.

SoylentRed wrote:
This was also how I won - I was able to open the way with Frank - and then on my next activation had a 3 move order - so she could move out 18 spaces through the gap created by Frank.


Yup. That first scenario can swing wildly. Best bet is to leave the map set up, switch sides, and play again.

Remember that the scenarios (especially the early ones) are merely Tutorials designed to ease you into the rules - they are not necessarily finely balanced gameplay scenarios. If, after playing Scenario One, you now have a good grasp of movement and close combat rules, you should move on.

SoylentRed wrote:
Overall - we are interested in playing more - but we just were scratching our heads at how easily I just ran out the door and won it. (It didn't help that I found her in the first room I looked in - on the first turn.)


Earth Reborn is definitely worth the time investment. Stick with it.

Again, a lot of luck in a luck-driven tutorial mission. I'd suggest skipping to Scenario 3 for your next mission; if you're an experienced gamer and feel pretty confident with the mechanics of moving and close combat, you'll be able to handle the rules load that comes with skipping pretty easily. Just make sure you have read through the relevant rules a few times so that they're a little familiar during the game, and keep the rulebook handy.

SoylentRed wrote:
(Some of it will benefit from me sitting down and reading the rules again - AFTER our first play last night.)


There are definitely some ambiguities in the rules that don't get worked out until you've struggled with them in-game. Your first run just happened to illustrate several of the luck factors in the game aligning in your favor:

- Franck got an awesome CC order tile.
- You found Vasquez right away.
- You also had a Move 3 order tile in hand for speedy Vasquez.

Once you get around to the full game, you'll find that luck gets much less swingy and evens out as the scenarios get more complex.

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Kurt R
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Salem should lock down the escape routes on the sides of the board (just by standing there) and cover the door on the front of the building. Send Jack Saw around back and have Deeler open the door. Now all escape routes are blocked and Jack Saw is inside. See how easy it is for NORAD now.

Hope you continue to enjoy the game!
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shidara wrote:

SoylentRed wrote:
(PS - holy crap setup takes forever... I have a lot of play in Descent first edition - which is a hell of a setup - but I was surprised at how long it took!)


Indeed it does, but for the "full" game - SAGS - the Setup is actually part of the tactical play and the game lasts long enough to make the time spent board building worthwhile. I beleive a BGGer has uploaded scans of the tutorial maps pre-assembled; you could print those and use them to speed up the map building while playing through the tutorials.

SoylentRed wrote:
Ok - the question is - when you activate a character and give it an order token - did we play it right that you can play as many points as you want in that one activation as are legally possible. Example being that Frank Einstein can only have 5 points into actions each round (forgive me if I'm using any incorrect terminology and just look at idea of what is going on) - I had the order token that allowed for 1 move and 4 attacks I think it was - did we play it right that I could move and then attack 4 times?


Yes, that is correct. If Franck had an order tile with a 1-move and 4-close combat, you can assign him both orders in a single activation round, spending 5 command points (CP) to power that.

Above you said "attack 4 times." Keep in mind that a 4-Close Combat order is a single attack roll with 3 bonus dice, not 4 separate Close Combat attacks.


Awesome replies - thanks!

I will DEFINITELY be printing out the preassembled maps for our next play... that will speed things up so much.

AND we played that combat incorrectly! I attacked 4 times lol... Rather than my normal attack with 3 bonus dice! (We were just sitting there scratching our heads about that one...)

So that leads to the next question - can you add more bonus dice than there are dice in the game? AND - can you add dice after the initial roll?

Just put 1cp in the attack - see I need more power to that hit - add one more, roll 1 more? etc? Similar to spending fatigue in Descent 1e to add another power die to the roll?

And in reply to Kurt - he didn't do a good job of placing the 2 zombies and Jack Saw by the door I was obviously leaving. He left them in a way that allowed me to kill just 1 zombie and get out.
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Kurt R
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I suggest a reread of the combat rules, but to answer your question:

If you play a 4 knife, that gives you 1 attack with up to 3 bonus dice (1+3=4). That's the max you could do with that attack. You would have to pay 4CPs for that though. Or, if you wanted, you could pay less, say 2CPs for 1 attack and 1 bonus die. Not an efficient use of the tile but just so you know you can. You can never pay more than the tile limit though. The first CP gives you the attack, the rest give you the bonus dice up to the limit of the tile.

I thought the game was broken after my first play b/c my opponent just ran away from me. I deemed it unwinnable for the Salem. Then I learned how to lock down the escape routes. I won on my third play by cornering Vazquez in a hallway as she clawed at the door to get out.
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So my other question is this.

When Frank Einstein is attacking. When he is in his dark blue range for a melee hit - it shows +4 yellow attack die.

So I spend the 1CP to attack - do I roll the 4 die?

If I spend 4CP for the attack - is it then the 4 die on his card for the first CP - and then 3 more die for the remaining CP?

I clearly need to re-read this section of the rules.
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Kurt R
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SoylentRed wrote:
So my other question is this.

When Frank Einstein is attacking. When he is in his dark blue range for a melee hit - it shows +4 yellow attack die.

So I spend the 1CP to attack - do I roll the 4 die?

If I spend 4CP for the attack - is it then the 4 die on his card for the first CP - and then 3 more die for the remaining CP?

I clearly need to re-read this section of the rules.

Yes. So, example #1:

You use a 4 knife tile with Franck attacking from his dark blue facing. (I don't have the card in front of me but you say he has attack 4 from that facing)

You pay 4CPs. The first CP allows you to attack with Franck's base attack which in this case is 4. Then the additional 3CPs give three bonus dice. So you're rolling 7 dice. If there aren't enough, simply reroll as needed.


Example #2:

You play a 2 Knife tile. The first CP gives you the base 4 dice and the 2nd CP gives you one additional die for a total of 5 dice.
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enzo622 wrote:
SoylentRed wrote:
So my other question is this.

When Frank Einstein is attacking. When he is in his dark blue range for a melee hit - it shows +4 yellow attack die.

So I spend the 1CP to attack - do I roll the 4 die?

If I spend 4CP for the attack - is it then the 4 die on his card for the first CP - and then 3 more die for the remaining CP?

I clearly need to re-read this section of the rules.

Yes. So, example #1:

You use a 4 knife tile with Franck attacking from his dark blue facing. (I don't have the card in front of me but you say he has attack 4 from that facing)

You pay 4CPs. The first CP allows you to attack with Franck's base attack which in this case is 4. Then the additional 3CPs give three bonus dice. So you're rolling 7 dice. If there aren't enough, simply reroll as needed.


Example #2:

You play a 2 Knife tile. The first CP gives you the base 4 dice and the 2nd CP gives you one additional die for a total of 5 dice.


That makes a ton of sense now - thanks!

It also fixes the issue we had with vasquez... as she has the +2 dmg on her dark blue facing - and we were so puzzled by the fact that she didn't have any stinkin' die to roll - so she was really worthless if she were to attack anyone as 2 dmg is not enough to get through anyone's armor really. (except Jack Saw... as if I recall his is only 1 armor.)
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Jan Tuijp
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SoylentRed wrote:
So my other question is this.

When Frank Einstein is attacking. When he is in his dark blue range for a melee hit - it shows +4 yellow attack die.

So I spend the 1CP to attack - do I roll the 4 die?

If I spend 4CP for the attack - is it then the 4 die on his card for the first CP - and then 3 more die for the remaining CP?

I clearly need to re-read this section of the rules.


Re-reading and re-re-reading the rules is always a good idea with ER. But you're right: if you spend 4 CP on a 4 knife order tile for Franck, you get to roll 7 dice.

I strongly recommend to play all scenarios. My son and I have, some of them twice or even thrice. We are now playing #7 and already decided to play it at least two times more. The scenarios are fun and exciting and very instructive, even more so when you follow the wrong strategy.

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Tim McCormley
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SoylentRed wrote:
I played Norad - and was able to win REALLY easily.

It happens.

But I hope you have seen (given the strategy hints descirbed elsewhere) that this game encourages non-linear thinking. Focusing on the goal of the mission (especially in SAGS mode) is critical. The tendency is to play the game in terms of combat tactics, and while that's certainly fun for a guy like me, you really need to consider all of the options the characters have available to them to solve specific mission problems.

While I don't think any of the missions are obviously unbalanced (although you might find opinions to the contrary in that regard,) the game is definitely asymmetrical.

Tim
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Ryan Lopez DeVinaspre
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SoylentRed wrote:

So that leads to the next question - can you add more bonus dice than there are dice in the game? AND - can you add dice after the initial roll?


Just to clarify (I didn't see anyone address this), you CANNOT add dice after the initial roll. If you have a 4 Knife tile, and choose to play only 2 cp, that's it. You're done, and the remaining 2 cp can NEVER be used--that close combat order was completed and is done for that tile until it is discarded and redrawn.

This is especially important for shooting, where you must decide which bonus dice to use for targeting, and which to use for damage (an individual bonus die cannot be used for both), and where more targeting dice increases your chance of running out of ammo.

The only exception is the Move order. If you have a 3-move order, you may use 1 now, and the other 2 later
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SoylentRed wrote:
Example being that Frank Einstein can only have 5 points into actions each round..


Is it 5 per round or per turn?
 
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Rafael Castrequini
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(Action) Round.

To make it clear, a turn is made of action rounds, where players alternates playing them.
 
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