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Subject: Do you really want to die quickly? rss

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Brian Pihl
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I played a couple games controlling 3 players just to understand the game and rules. Everyone says you want your people to die quick? It does not seem that the points are that big for a noble death. It seemed like someone keeping the crafting people alive to go to the market over and over again did the best.

Also, travel seems to be a poor strategy. The cost is too high for the points received. Otherwise a great game.
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David Bancroft
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bkpihl wrote:
I played a couple games controlling 3 players just to understand the game and rules. Everyone says you want your people to die quick? It does not seem that the points are that big for a noble death. It seemed like someone keeping the crafting people alive to go to the market over and over again did the best.

Also, travel seems to be a poor strategy. The cost is too high for the points received. Otherwise a great game.


Most people I play with don't like to travel...seems like the least popular choice.
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Doug Green
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From my experience killing off your workers as quickly as possible is not the best way to go. Getting 12 points in the Chronicle will definitley not win you the game all by itself.
 
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Clyde W
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bkpihl wrote:
I played a couple games controlling 3 players just to understand the game and rules. Everyone says you want your people to die quick? It does not seem that the points are that big for a noble death. It seemed like someone keeping the crafting people alive to go to the market over and over again did the best.

Also, travel seems to be a poor strategy. The cost is too high for the points received. Otherwise a great game.
Yes, kill as quickly as possible, and I find travel to be fine.
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Brent Wilson
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I've found travel to be fine too. It's important to notice that for both travel and the chronicle, the more you do there, the more points you get per "action". That's the opposite of the church where there's diminishing returns on spending grain to advance church workers and different from the market where payoffs don't get better or worse as you collect them (except for the promo tile that gives you one point for every two market tiles you collect).
 
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John Bradshaw
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bkpihl wrote:
travel seems to be a poor strategy. The cost is too high for the points received. Otherwise a great game.


I've won the 2 games I've played (without knowing much about what I was doing) and avoided travel both times. I agree the cost seems high - but hopefully some experienced players will be able to say that they often win by predominantly using the travel track.

Of course, if everyone goes for crafting + market the competition for market customers will reduce the returns and travel might be more valuable then.

Good game - I'm keen to play it more.
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brian
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clydeiii wrote:
Yes, kill as quickly as possible, and I find travel to be fine.

Ditto.

I find travel just fine. The 2 "2-cubes" of your choice usually come in at the right time. And Remember that you don't need to have one guy travel the whole circuit. It is cheaper to start a 2nd guy when the first guy goes into the Chronicles.

However, I think a key to winning is hitting the market. That seems to be the biggest points and necessary for a win in our experience so far.
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David Bancroft
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We are going to try a new house rule for traveling. When your meeple dies off, next time you take an action there you have the choice to continue where you left off(since it's been paid for)or start a new path just to make traveling my atractive for our gaming group. Has any one else experienced where players will avoid traveling unless they have too?
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I agree, the market can be big points... and that is how I've seen the wins.

What I don't understand is why the point track goes so high. I never see anyone get to 75 points. Are we doing it wrong.

Also, I see very few points come from the Civil Hall.

BOb
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brian
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pilotbob wrote:
I agree, the market can be big points... and that is how I've seen the wins.

What I don't understand is why the point track goes so high. I never see anyone get to 75 points. Are we doing it wrong.

Also, I see very few points come from the Civil Hall.

BOb

In our first game, winner was 86 points with 2nd place at 81, 3rd and 4th were in the mid-60's.

2nd Game, 2-player 79-70.

3rd game, 3-player all in the 60's.

I would say don't forget to get your 2 points per turn in the cathedral for the player with the most monks. You really should try for 5 meeple in the chronicles. If you haven't burned through the market stack by the end of the game, you probably aren't focusing on that enough (we haven't run out but we have exhausted the stack in every game). And don't forget coins are 1 VP each (and are also wild for when you need to sell but don't a green cube).

City Hall doesn't give a lot of points but really helps fuel the other places, especially travel when you can pick up 2 influence cubes of your choice or any goods token. Plus it is a way to make your cash more VP worthy at the end.

Don't forget you can also extend the round, and possibly get more points by playing the wishing well.
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Brent Wilson
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The travel area easily accommodates 2 family members from the same family without any wasted actions. The first one goes either along upper or lower path and then continues along that path until he dies, then the next one stars off in the other direction and can get to the rest of the cities without any overlap.
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Curt Carpenter
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bkpihl wrote:
Also, travel seems to be a poor strategy. The cost is too high for the points received.

Don't forget that every travel space provides a benefit, in addition to end-game points. Chronicle graves provide no benefit beyond the end game points.

The efficiency of it really comes down to how many players are making a play for it.
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paxton73 wrote:
bkpihl wrote:
I played a couple games controlling 3 players just to understand the game and rules. Everyone says you want your people to die quick? It does not seem that the points are that big for a noble death. It seemed like someone keeping the crafting people alive to go to the market over and over again did the best.

Also, travel seems to be a poor strategy. The cost is too high for the points received. Otherwise a great game.


Most people I play with don't like to travel...seems like the least popular choice.


When travelling make sure you manage to see a lot! In our games the player who reached all the places won. Thats why we consider travelling to be a strong stratagy.
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David Jones
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Replying various comments...

Killing people is a bit of a balancing act. I have won games by the point differential in the chronicle (although I wouldn't say that was the only factor) but I've also played games where killing people too quickly has caused me trouble. (Remember, you can farm without a farmer!) Conversely, I remember a game where one player managed to not kill a single person and ended up with seven meeples in the chapel. He lost, but only by a few points.

Travel is a good strategy, but you pretty much have to commit to it. The payout for first couple of cities are not that good, but the four points per city (end game) is where you recoup your losses. Players who only do three or four cities are not likely to score well.

Regarding city hall, again I had one game were a player bought up early and had a grain->coin factory going, buying the 3PP once or twice per round. Again, he didn't win, but the loss was only a few points.

Like any good euro, I think the real key to winning is finding a middle ground between focus and diversification. No single strategy alone will win the game, but failing to follow through on the strategies you choose also has its downfalls.



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ColtsFan76 wrote:

In our first game, winner was 86 points with 2nd place at 81, 3rd and 4th were in the mid-60's.

2nd Game, 2-player 79-70.

3rd game, 3-player all in the 60's.


Wow... how many rounds are you playing?

The 2 points in the church per mass might be what, 10 points if you get them all.

We certainly haven't got any where near even half of the market tiles.

I don't see City hall as that strong. Sure, you get two cubes, but it cost you a scroll or two green cubes. I've only played a few times, but I don't think I've seen anyone in the last City Hall spot where you can turn a gold into 3 points.

BOb
 
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Tim Seitz
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bkpihl wrote:
I played a couple games controlling 3 players just to understand the game and rules. Everyone says you want your people to die quick? It does not seem that the points are that big for a noble death. It seemed like someone keeping the crafting people alive to go to the market over and over again did the best.

The two strategies are not mutually exclusive. If both players primarily craft and go to market, the player who managed to kill off his guys faster will end up winning.
 
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Lochi Lochi
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pilotbob wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:

In our first game, winner was 86 points with 2nd place at 81, 3rd and 4th were in the mid-60's.

2nd Game, 2-player 79-70.

3rd game, 3-player all in the 60's.


Wow... how many rounds are you playing?

The 2 points in the church per mass might be what, 10 points if you get them all.

We certainly haven't got any where near even half of the market tiles.

I don't see City hall as that strong. Sure, you get two cubes, but it cost you a scroll or two green cubes. I've only played a few times, but I don't think I've seen anyone in the last City Hall spot where you can turn a gold into 3 points.

BOb


Remember you only pay the cost of the City hall when you move to the spot for the benefit. If you take the cube when you already have a meeple in the city hall and don't move it you don't pay, just get the benefit.

That's what makes city hall so powerful. Free cubes, tiles and 1 coin -> 3 points exchange.
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brian
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pilotbob wrote:
I don't see City hall as that strong. Sure, you get two cubes, but it cost you a scroll or two green cubes. I've only played a few times, but I don't think I've seen anyone in the last City Hall spot where you can turn a gold into 3 points.

BOb

Lochi already commented but the Time and Green/Scroll cost is just to advance. When you take a cube from here, if you don't move up, there is zero cost (unless the cube is a plague) and you just take the action of where you stand or back to the left.
 
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brian
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pilotbob wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:

In our first game, winner was 86 points with 2nd place at 81, 3rd and 4th were in the mid-60's.

2nd Game, 2-player 79-70.

3rd game, 3-player all in the 60's.


Wow... how many rounds are you playing?

The 2 points in the church per mass might be what, 10 points if you get them all.

We certainly haven't got any where near even half of the market tiles.

Cleaning up in travel can get you 24 points. Getting 5 Meeples in the Chronicles can get you another 12. The City Hall isn't much, maybe we get 9 if we are lucky. The end score at the Church I'd say we average around 12 as we typically have about 3 each, not all advanced. That's 57 just in those spots. The in-scoring for the church might get us another half dozen. We'll just round to 60.

So the rest is coming from the market. I typically don't compete in City Hall or the Church as much and focus more on the market which in that first game probably got around 25 points from it. Always have something to sell. Much like killing your meeples off, be ready to sell your plow or oxen if you are set on grain for awhile. Use City Hall to collect Yellow Tokens for those waiting in line. Always be ready to sell something when a market cube is taken and plan to sell at least twice if you take it. And don't forget the wishing well gets you another action here too.
 
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Lochi wrote:

Remember you only pay the cost of the City hall when you move to the spot for the benefit. If you take the cube when you already have a meeple in the city hall and don't move it you don't pay, just get the benefit.

That's what makes city hall so powerful. Free cubes, tiles and 1 coin -> 3 points exchange.


DOH! We played that wrong. Thought it was time to move, scroll/cubes to get the benefit. That does make the city hall better.

Thanks!

BOb
 
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Alex Rockwell
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pilotbob wrote:
I agree, the market can be big points... and that is how I've seen the wins.

What I don't understand is why the point track goes so high. I never see anyone get to 75 points. Are we doing it wrong.

Also, I see very few points come from the Civil Hall.

BOb


Just hit 78 in my 2nd game. High scores are possible when the endgame drags on with people not wanting to end it. Our game went to a 5th round, as a couple new players were avoiding deaths. I ended up with 6 people in the honor rolls.
 
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Jens Hoppe
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I don't think it's so much a case of "killing your meeples quickly" being a strategy by itself. Instead, timing the death of your meeples so they get to go in the chronicle without impeding your strategy too much seems to be the way to go. That also implies that one should not approach the game with the intent of not getting meeples killed - meeple death is an inevitable part of the game, and a good source of points if one manages to time it correctly.

I am undecided on the viability of travel: I agree that it seems to be a slow and expensive way of getting points, compared to the alternatives. On the other hand, I have seen people win who have followed an aggressive travel strategy. Alternatively, it might be a good idea to pursue travelling a bit more half-heartedly: I have had success just sending meeples (on two occasions) to the two towns initially reachable - they're the ones giving 3 VP each. Having a meeple in the travel section also opens up the possibility of getting him into the green section of the chronicle.
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John Weber
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Everything is relative, I have seen all sorts of different strategies win. If one player is left alone to dominate the major points scoring areas (Church, Council, Travel or Market), that player has a definite advantage. Usually it helps to score points in the Chronicle, but I have seen wins by players with as few as two workers in the Chronicle by game-end as well.
 
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Tim Seitz
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jens_hoppe wrote:
I don't think it's so much a case of "killing your meeples quickly" being a strategy by itself. Instead, timing the death of your meeples so they get to go in the chronicle without impeding your strategy too much seems to be the way to go. That also implies that one should not approach the game with the intent of not getting meeples killed - meeple death is an inevitable part of the game, and a good source of points if one manages to time it correctly.

Exactly. Killing villagers is not mutually exclusive to other strategies. It's not a kill villagers strategy vs. a traveling strategy. It's a kill villagers approach vs. conserve time approach.

Is conserving time a better approach than killing villagers as quickly as possible?

Last 4-player game I played I tested this, and took actions that used up as much time as possible.
- When crafting, I always trained a worker and used time
- When using mass, I always used time instead of a brown cube
- I was not afraid of taking plague cubes - in fact I took plague cubes early to ensure I could kill off workers faster than others and secure spots in the chronicle.

As the only player with 5 in the chronicle, I won by around a comfortable margin. However, if the second place player had managed to snag my last chronicle spot (giving him 5 and me 4) then he would have won.
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