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Subject: So is this card back problem going to be fixed or not? rss

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Adam Kazimierczak
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My gaming group loves 7 Wonders. This was a no-brainer purchase-- until the review dropped the bomb about the off color card backs. I know this has a perfectly good print run explanation, but it's a dealbreaker for me.

Is this getting fixed? I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion about this.
 
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kaziam wrote:
My gaming group loves 7 Wonders. This was a no-brainer purchase-- until the review dropped the bomb about the off color card backs. I know this has a perfectly good print run explanation, but it's a dealbreaker for me.

Is this getting fixed? I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion anout this.


Discussion or qq'ing?
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Runcible Spoon
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Some of the BGG'ers in the review thread you refer to mentioned that in their copies cities matched well with their base game.

There are some issues here as well though. There have been a fair number of printings at this point, in a variety of languages and editions, so I am not going to assume that someone in Europe whose base game matches or does not match will have the same results I will have. There have been well known color issues for some editions and not others so who knows which editions they will/won't match.

One possible solution are card sleeves. I believe Mayday makes opaque backed sleeves in a variety of colors specifically for 7 wonders. I don't use this brand of card sleeves for 7 wonders so I can't speak to their merits, but I have seem them at some retailers.

I will reserve judgment until I have cities side by side with my own set.

In the meantime I am looking forward to the game arriving.
 
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Justin Fitzgerald
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I wouldn't have noticed the card back color difference if someone hadn't mentioned it. I've got plenty of games that have the problem worse. Is it even gamebreaking? Not particularly imo... even the replacements they sent weren't a perfect match. They were just a little less wrong. I wouldn't sweat it.
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Mike Wene
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I wonder about this topic when I see these threads. Does it really have an impact on play? I have the base set plus Leaders. And while my cards match pretty well, I can honestly say that it really wouldn't matter if they didn't match perfectly. There doesn't seem to be any influence on selection when you know the quantity of Leaders vs Base Game cards in opponents hands. So does it really matter at all? I know that it might mean for example, that I know there is a Leaders expansion Guild in play, but is that a huge problem?

I may wait on the Cities expansion too, if this is an issue.
 
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The Compulsive Completist
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The card back problem has zero impact on the game for my group. If it were Dominion it would have a huge impact.
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Adam Kazimierczak
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unveilmyeyes wrote:
kaziam wrote:
My gaming group loves 7 Wonders. This was a no-brainer purchase-- until the review dropped the bomb about the off color card backs. I know this has a perfectly good print run explanation, but it's a dealbreaker for me.

Is this getting fixed? I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion anout this.


Discussion or qq'ing?


Mostly discussion.

I know there's probably nothing they can do about it this second, but if the board gaming community does a mass shoulder shrug and moves on then I doubt there will be enough motivation for an expedited reprint to fix the issue.

I seem to recall other games with similar expansion printing discrepancies, and the Rome wonder card that came with the Leaders expansion was also off.

It seems that matching card backs should be less fraught with error. Look at Magic the Gathering: umpteen expansions and not a single flub in card back color or tone.
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Lee Fisher
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kaziam wrote:
unveilmyeyes wrote:
kaziam wrote:
My gaming group loves 7 Wonders. This was a no-brainer purchase-- until the review dropped the bomb about the off color card backs. I know this has a perfectly good print run explanation, but it's a dealbreaker for me.

Is this getting fixed? I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion anout this.


Discussion or qq'ing?


Mostly discussion.

I know there's probably nothing they can do about it this second, but if the board gaming community does a mass shoulder shrug and moves on then I doubt there will be enough motivation for an expedited reprint to fix the issue.

I seem to recall other games with similar expansion printing discrepancies, and the Rome wonder card that came with the Leaders expansion was also off.

It seems that matching card backs should be less fraught with error. Look at Magic the Gathering: umpteen expansions and not a single flub in card back color or tone.


So far there isn't much evidence of a widespread issue in cities. We'll see once more people get it.
 
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Adam Kazimierczak
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lfisher wrote:
kaziam wrote:
unveilmyeyes wrote:
kaziam wrote:
My gaming group loves 7 Wonders. This was a no-brainer purchase-- until the review dropped the bomb about the off color card backs. I know this has a perfectly good print run explanation, but it's a dealbreaker for me.

Is this getting fixed? I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion anout this.


Discussion or qq'ing?


Mostly discussion.

I know there's probably nothing they can do about it this second, but if the board gaming community does a mass shoulder shrug and moves on then I doubt there will be enough motivation for an expedited reprint to fix the issue.

I seem to recall other games with similar expansion printing discrepancies, and the Rome wonder card that came with the Leaders expansion was also off.

It seems that matching card backs should be less fraught with error. Look at Magic the Gathering: umpteen expansions and not a single flub in card back color or tone.


So far there isn't much evidence of a widespread issue in cities. We'll see once more people get it.


That's a relief. I know it's not as big of an issue as marked cards in other games but it would change the game somewhat if I knew that potentially a black card from the expansion was coming my way in a pass when I'm collecting them.
 
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Ron
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Generally, this is a big shame.

Manhood splits atoms, lands on the moon, explores Mars, but isn't able to print identical back colors on cards wow

It's not a big issue in case of 7W, but still, it's a shame!
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Kenneth Stuart
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The reviewer apparently had an older edition of 7W. My copies of 7W and 7W:Leaders has no visible difference. I assume 7W:Cities will use the same printing as the most recent releases of the previous 2 games.

Just make sure you get the base game with the 4 awards printed on the box cover, the most recent (3rd, I think) printing of the game.
 
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Jacek Deimer
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I think it's not a big deal. My leaders guilds are a bit different from base game. First I was a bit worried about this, but after few plays I see its not an issue.

I think it also won't be an issue with black cards. There are 9 per age and each is different, counting that it will be the one you need is a poor bet (about 11%).

Quote:

It seems that matching card backs should be less fraught with error. Look at Magic the Gathering: umpteen expansions and not a single flub in card back color or tone.


About 10 years ago I played a lot of Magic and card backs were different almost every set. Some where extremely dark/light, and easy to spot. Even different printings of the same set had diffent shade. Maybe it's better now, I haven't played with real cards in a long time.

Also each of my six expansions for Carcassonne have different tile back. I'm completely fine with that. Some players my look for advantage in this, but I think it doesn't give enought information to be relevant.

Conclusion: Dfferent card backs don't break the game !
 
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Ron
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Reid666 wrote:
Conclusion: Dfferent card backs don't break the game !

Usually not. But the designer's intent was to create identic card backs. The producer was obviously not able to do it.

So, they don't break the game, but they also don't make it better. Au contraire. soblue
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Jacek Deimer
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Quote:
So, they don't break the game, but they also don't make it better. Au contraire.


Yes, it makes aesthetic experience a bit worse.

But I've read that there are plans for up to 7 expansion. So over the years base game will be reprinted many more times. New expansions will come, old will get reprinted. So I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect that card backs will always be the same shade, they will be similar, but not exact.

I don't want to defend producer, as I also think that colors should be closer, but exaggerating this issue may turn off some people from buying this wonderfull game.(For example someone may think -> "I almost bought this game, but I read on BGG forums there are problems with card backs and that expansions doesn't match base and that there are production issues with different versions of game, so I gave it a pass")

The more people buy this game -> the higher chances that new expansions are coming -> I would love to see more expansions and will be happy because of that even if they have slightly different card backs

Conclusion 2: Different card backs are only cosmetic issue, they are almost (I'd say in 99%) irrelevant for the gameplay!

 
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Adam Kazimierczak
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[q="Reid666"]
Quote:
So, they don't break the game, but they also don't make it better. Au contraire.
[q/]

I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect that card backs will always be the same shade, they will be similar, but not exact.


I have Twilight Imperium and 2 expansions: cards all same shade
I have Agricola + 1 expansion: cards all same shade
I have original Netrunner + Proteus expansion: cards all same shade
I have Legend of the Five Rings + 4 expansions: cards all same shade
I have King of Tokyo + promo cards: cards all same shade

How is this an "unrealistic" expectation? Is there some rare ink from giant squids that is needed for these cards?

I'm ok with regional print problems and incompatibility with the 1st printing, but saying that quality control on a relatively new game that is still in print is "unrealistic" is absurd.

As previously posted, it may be an isolated issue to one regional print run.

And I'm not worried about the tournament level play disqualification for marked cards. But if I will be able to tell at a glance which cards are from which expansion as they are dealt then they might as well just print "Cities" on the backs of the expansion cards so that it at least appears intentional.
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Jacek Deimer
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First of all, I didn't say it's not an issue, but that it's really minor thing.

I have Polish edition of base game, propably 1st ed. as it has wooden coins and "international edition" of leaders. After reading BGG forums I thought that difference in colors of 3-age cards is huge, but when I've got cards in my hands, I've seen that difference is not that big. After some plays I decided it isn't a problem at all.

From other post we can see that this issue is propably related to 1st and/or 2nd edition. So if you get 3rd it should be ok. If not, then there are Mayday sleeves in 3 colors, made especially to solve this problem.

Unfortunatelly 1st printings of many games (especially card games) have some manufacturing issues:

Thunderstone -> different card size and shade
Ascension -> different card size
Alien Frontiers: Factions -> different card shade/color than in base game
Neuroshima Hex -> tokens misscut in many different ways, it was possible to regognize specific ones (but at least not all)

And also card/board games being in print have problem with incompatible card backs:

Carcassonne -> after 12 years in production they cannot make tiles the same shade between base and expansions
Legend of Five Rings -> they changed cardbacks completely between old and new edition
WoW TCG -> changed cardbacks after changed ownership (removed UDE logo)
Munchkin -> changed color of treasure cards between editions

So, yes quality control is still a bit lacking in gaming industry. And sometimes there are other factors that unables to reproduce quality of previous editions, for ex.: changes of manufacturers and printing technologies.

Your examples shows that some companies can do better in this matters than others. I think Repos is still relatively small company and 7 Wonders is their first big hit, so I'm more forgiving them than big companies like FFG.


To sum up, I think it's a great game, worth all of the praise and awards it has received. Card backs issue is really minor and doesn't change the game. I don't think you should give up on expansions beacause of this.


But if you cannot live with different card backs you can do 3 things:
1. Buy opaque sleeves. (If you play game often you propably should consider using some sleeves - cards get worn pretty fast.)
2. Find copy of game that match expansions more. (Sell or giveaway old one.)
3. Contact publisher/producer and ask for solution to this problem.

or

4.If there is still problem with new editions and you absolutelly can't live with that -> Give up with expansions or wait for a moment when base and expansions will be reprinted at the same moment.

 
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Just got myself a copy. Upon close inspection I can tell that the hues are slightly different between Cities and my base set. It's not noticeable though, at all, from a distance. It won't affect gameplay, so for my part, there is no problem. YMMV, enjoy the game!
 
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Since this issue seems to keep coming up with every expansion and will likely continue to do so with new expansions in the future, wouldn't it be better at this point if the new card backs are not exactly the same as the ones from the base set or the guilds from Leaders?


Throw them all together and you'll have a "rainbow" deck with all of them being slightly different shades. Other than the slight cosmetic annoyance, whatever possible effect it could have had on gameplay will be gone.
Not that there ever really was any significant effect on gameplay in the first place.
 
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Steven Fouts
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The impact of the different shading on the back is minimal at best.

As I'm prepping the Leaders & Guilds for the game, I can tell "2 guilds from the Leaders expansion in this game." That is the biggest impact that there is on our games.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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kaziam wrote:
This was a no-brainer purchase-- until the review dropped the bomb about the off color card backs. I know this has a perfectly good print run explanation, but it's a dealbreaker for me.
I wonder how much money your gaming group usually has riding on what should be a casual game night so that a slight discrepancy has changed your opinion from "a no-brainer purchase" to "a dealbreaker."

kaziam wrote:
I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion about this. :what:
There was a great deal of discussion about this, both when the original print run was released, and when Leaders was released. The overwhelming opinion was "it's not anywhere near blatant enough to make a difference unless you're looking for something to nitpick."
 
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I suspect the biggest challenge 7 Wonders has with its card backs is their minimalist design. Slight changes to large, bright, solid colors is significantly easier to identify than busier designs. If I REALLY look at the back of Magic cards, I can often see differences, but they're busy enough that its harder to pick them out.
 
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Woelf wrote:
Since this issue seems to keep coming up with every expansion and will likely continue to do so with new expansions in the future, wouldn't it be better at this point if the new card backs are not exactly the same as the ones from the base set or the guilds from Leaders?


Throw them all together and you'll have a "rainbow" deck with all of them being slightly different shades. Other than the slight cosmetic annoyance, whatever possible effect it could have had on gameplay will be gone.
Not that there ever really was any significant effect on gameplay in the first place.


While I can totally see the logic in this, it is disconcerning that the way to fix something you screwed up, is to screw it up ever more.

Wait, are talking about a game or government?
 
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Derek Thompson
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I got my copy of Cities. The backs match Leaders perfectly as well as my Age III replacement deck, which you can still get for free from Game Surplus, or probably from Asmodee. My game looks perfect now!

Edit: And I think the mismatch is only against the first edition of 7W.
 
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Adam Kazimierczak
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ryudoowaru wrote:
kaziam wrote:
This was a no-brainer purchase-- until the review dropped the bomb about the off color card backs. I know this has a perfectly good print run explanation, but it's a dealbreaker for me.
I wonder how much money your gaming group usually has riding on what should be a casual game night so that a slight discrepancy has changed your opinin from "a no-brainer purchase" to "a dealbreaker."
kaziam wrote:
I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion about this.
There was a great deal of discussion about this, both when the original print run was released, and when Leaders was released. The overwhelming opinion was "it's not anywhere near blatant enough to make a difference unless you're looking for something to nitpick."

So there was a lot of discussion about the card backs after Leaders was released, and most agreed to overlook the defective cards. Now there is the same issue with this expansion. So you are suggesting we the consumers overlook that as well. That it is absurd to complain about mismatching card backs. That this is a casual game so it doesn't matter. That your great deal of discussion in the past has silenced all who would dare to disagree and want better quality control.

edit: less snarky




 
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The Compulsive Completist
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If each expansion doesn't match another one the problem will solve itself.
 
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