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Subject: Understanding Wyrm. rss

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Enon Sci
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Ok, I understand that Wyrm is designed to be a compliment to another breaker (as per the discussion on the card image posted above). As it was described therein:

bhz1 wrote:

1) Encounter (insert flavor here) ice with strength X.
2) Boost Wyrm's strength to X.
3) Reduce ice's strength to Y, where Y is the base strength of your favorite relevant icebreaker whose type matches that of the ice.
4) Use $0/$1 cost subroutine-breaking effect on that icebreaker.
5) If ice is a non-standard type (Trap, for example), Wyrm will need to reduce ice's strength to 0 and then spend $3 to break subroutines.

Pretty clever if you've got the cheap-to-break supporting icebreakers loaded in parallel.


However, unless I'm being sleepy, this seems to imply its supporting an icebreaker without a native "1 cred for +1 strength" ability, and those seem either rare or non-existent in the icebreakers we've already seen.

What am I missing here?

Working through the details with a hypothetical example:

Runner comes across a barrier with a strength of 4.

To use Wyrm by itself:

1. Spend 3 creds to boost Wyrm's strength to 4. Now it can interact.
2. Spend 4 more creds to lower the ice's strength to 0.
3. spend 3 creds to break ONE subroutine on that ice.



To use Wyrm in conjunction with another bit of icebreaker (presumably too weak to touch the ice):

1. Spend 3 creds to boost Wyrm's strength to 4. Now it can interact.
2. Spend 1 cred for each strength point above the other breaker to lower the ice's strength. Let's say this hypothetical breaker is strength 2.
3. Spend x (probably 1) creds to break the ice using this secondary breaker.

With the cost of playing Wyrm, this costs 6 creds before even breaking the ice. If the weaker breaker had a 1 cred for +1 strength ability, which most seem to, it would cost 2 creds before breaking the ice (+whatever the card cost would be -- it's hard doing this without a specific example).

Am I missing something with this or is Wyrm a highly situational play? Have we seen icebreakers without boost effects, at all?
 
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Bob Smithy

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I see using Wyrm not as a helper for other ice, but for a rich but time-strapped runner. If the strength of an ice is X, Wyrm's cost is 2(X+1) to use. It's better than crypsis's action though, in some circumstances. I think it's just there to add choice to Anarchs.
 
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Enon Sci
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Hdnggrnchrg wrote:
I see using Wyrm not as a helper for other ice, but for a rich but time-strapped runner. If the strength of an ice is X, Wyrm's cost is 2(X+1) to use. It's better than crypsis's action though, in some circumstances. I think it's just there to add choice to Anarchs.


Rich Runner's exist? Wouldn't they have installed better programs by then (since a rich Runner implies a late-game Runner)?

Eitherway, this seems highly situational, and not a strong inclusion in any deck once deckbuilding options hit the ground (and with influence, I guess they already have).
 
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Well, Wyrm works on every kind of ice.

Also, I haven't been following this very much, but in classic Netrunner at least there were certainly icebreakers which were expensive to power up but cheap to break.
 
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Justin Dugger

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Check out Parasite. You don't need to break any subroutines if Parasite trashes it first. Wyrm accelerates the process, so that corp can't just reset counters every so often.

Now, it's just a 1:1 card parity, but you target the expensive ICE, and exploit the temporary weakness. Fortunately Deja Vu nets you a bit of card advantage in conjunction with virii like this so you can actually come out permanently ahead.
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Patrick Jamet
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Anarchosyn wrote:
Have we seen icebreakers without boost effects, at all?

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Enon Sci
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Pyjam wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:
Have we seen icebreakers without boost effects, at all?

Parasite isn't a breaker, but Mimic is a legitimate response to my question. Thank you.

Asmor wrote:

Also, I haven't been following this very much, but in classic Netrunner at least there were certainly icebreakers which were expensive to power up but cheap to break.


What do you mean by this? I played the original a bit, but I'm unsure of what "expensive to power up but cheap to break" would mean.
 
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Ben Finkel
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Parasite isn't an ICEbreaker, but Mimic and Yog.0 are two of Noise's ICEbreakers that have fixed strength
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Azeltir wrote:
Parasite isn't an ICEbreaker, but Mimic and Yog.0 are two of Noise's ICEbreakers that have fixed strength


Just a side note, ice doesn't mean Intrusion Countermeasure Electronics in this game, so it doesn't need to be capitalized (it's not an acronym). This is why FFG doesn't write it like that. I know, I know.. I was a hold out myself until just now (literally, I broke with the habit within this past hour), but it sadly appears to be true.

Back on topic, thanks. I went through Byron's card list, but didn't see any which caught my eye (non-pumpable icebreakers).

pwnguin wrote:
Check out Parasite. You don't need to break any subroutines if Parasite trashes it first. Wyrm accelerates the process, so that corp can't just reset counters every so often.


Thanks. I hadn't run Wrym against the other cards in the faction to look for synergies (I merely ran it through my understanding of the rules in general, forgetting the Anarchs had a non-standard approach to most things). You comment definitely puts thing in a saner light. Still, if you don't drop the ice to 0 strength on your run, it don't be trashed or maintain the damage since runner interactions are erased once you past the ice.
 
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Ben Finkel
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Anarchosyn wrote:
What do you mean by this? I played the original a bit, but I'm unsure of what "expensive to power up but cheap to break" would mean.


Criminal's Ninja is a decent example of this, but Wyrm isn't too cost effective for it either. But a Wyrm-Ninja combo against something like an unadvanced Shadow is a much more bit-friendly solution than either alone.

Anarchosyn wrote:
Just a side note, ice doesn't mean Intrusion Countermeasure Electronics in this game, so it doesn't need to be capitalized (it's not an acronym). This is why FFG doesn't write it like that. I know, I know.. I was a hold out myself until just now (literally, I broke with the habit within this past hour), but it sadly appears to be true.


Yeah, well, FFG can suck digital eggs! They don't know their search tree roots! Get off my cyberlawn!
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Enon Sci
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Azeltir wrote:


Criminal's Ninja is a decent example of this, but Wyrm isn't too cost effective for it either. But a Wyrm-Ninja combo against something like an unadvanced Shadow is a much more bit-friendly solution than either alone.


Where is Shadow posted, I haven't seen that ice's details yet (I know it's Weyland, but where's the spoilers)?

Found it: http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/netrunner/android-netrun...



(and to save others having to run around: it would cost 3 to be fully broken with the Wrym, Ninja combo; 7 to be broken by Wrym alone -- 1 cred to reduce the strength, 6 creds to break -- and 5 creds to break via Ninja -- 3 to boost to +5 and 2 to break).
 
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Anarchosyn wrote:
Just a side note, ice doesn't mean Intrusion Countermeasure Electronics in this game, so it doesn't need to be capitalized (it's not an acronym). This is why FFG doesn't write it like that. I know, I know.. I was a hold out myself until just now (literally, I broke with the habit within this past hour), but it sadly appears to be true.


FWIW, Netrunner classic didn't write ice in all caps on the cards or in the rulebook either.
 
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B C Z
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to us old timers, it'll always be ICE.

And, if a card image isn't in the game gallery, it's in my personal gallery.

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As can be seen in the picture from a few posts back, ICE is printed in all capital letters when it is on a card.

If I remember correctly, ICE isn't fully capitalized in the rulebook. There's an inconsistency here. Due to this, I think I'll stick to the form "ICE" to match the spelling on the cards.
 
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kingjames01 wrote:
As can be seen in the picture from a few posts back, ICE is printed in all capital letters when it is on a card.

If I remember correctly, ICE isn't fully capitalized in the rulebook. There's an inconsistency here. Due to this, I think I'll stick to the form "ICE" to match the spelling on the cards.


Look at more cards, ice referenced in "icebreaker" and "ice" used in text descriptions isn't capitalized either, and nowhere in the rulebook does it explain the usage of the expression (thus, can't be argued to be an acronym).

Again, sad but true.
 
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James W
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Anarchosyn wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
As can be seen in the picture from a few posts back, ICE is printed in all capital letters when it is on a card.

If I remember correctly, ICE isn't fully capitalized in the rulebook. There's an inconsistency here. Due to this, I think I'll stick to the form "ICE" to match the spelling on the cards.


Look at more cards, ice referenced in "icebreaker" and "ice" used in text descriptions isn't capitalized either, and nowhere in the rulebook does it explain the usage of the expression (thus, can't be argued to be an acronym).

Again, sad but true.


Yeah, you're right. What I was looking at was the type and for all of the cards, the primary type is completely capitalized. I retract my statement.

However, this is going to get confusing. We should as a community come to a consensus. Anything that FFG does, I will take to be canon. So I guess I will have follow the rulebook/card text and not fully capitalize 'ice'.


Related to my above statement but not to the discussion started above:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

One item that is bothering me is that FFG has not given us a proper abbreviation for Android: Netrunner but I'm in favour of A:NR.
 
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Ben Finkel
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It's not like people will get confused about what ICE means when they're used to seeing ice. Maybe they'll just think we're shouting. Which might just be true!
 
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Azeltir wrote:
It's not like people will get confused about what ICE means when they're used to seeing ice. Maybe they'll just think we're shouting. Which might just be true!


If my 34 years on this planet have taught me anything it's that, no matter the topic, people can always surprise you with their beliefs.

But, yes, here on the Geek, I would assume you to be correct.
 
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Anarchosyn wrote:

(and to save others having to run around: it would cost 3 to be fully broken with the Wrym, Ninja combo; 7 to be broken by Wrym alone -- 1 cred to reduce the strength, 6 creds to break -- and 5 creds to break via Ninja -- 3 to boost to +5 and 2 to break).


No, it would cost 8; you're missing the initial 1 credit required to increase Wyrms strength so it can then interact with the ICE.
 
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Revenant wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:

(and to save others having to run around: it would cost 3 to be fully broken with the Wrym, Ninja combo; 7 to be broken by Wrym alone -- 1 cred to reduce the strength, 6 creds to break -- and 5 creds to break via Ninja -- 3 to boost to +5 and 2 to break).


No, it would cost 8; you're missing the initial 1 credit required to increase Wyrms strength so it can then interact with the ICE.


Look again, Shadow and Wyrm both have a initial strength of 1.
 
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Paxton Rice
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Anarchosyn wrote:
Still, if you don't drop the ice to 0 strength on your run, it don't be trashed or maintain the damage since runner interactions are erased once you past the ice.


Eh, I'm not so sure on that. I could see it being read either way, but I'm leaning toward the ice being trashed when that happens. Sure, it would spring back when the run is done, but right now the strength is zero, and Parasite says trash it.

(also, Grammar Police mode : it isn't trashed (present tense) or it won't be trashed (some form of future tense))
 
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TravelingAngel wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:
Still, if you don't drop the ice to 0 strength on your run, it don't be trashed or maintain the damage since runner interactions are erased once you past the ice.


Eh, I'm not so sure on that. I could see it being read either way, but I'm leaning toward the ice being trashed when that happens. Sure, it would spring back when the run is done, but right now the strength is zero, and Parasite says trash it.

(also, Grammar Police mode : it isn't trashed (present tense) or it won't be trashed (some form of future tense))


Note: I said "if you don't drop the ice to zero."

Yeah, I agree that if it gets to zero then parasite will trash it, but unless that is reached, none of the damage you did will remain (besides what Parasite is maintaining on its own). I was just highlighting the, perhaps obvious, fact that Wrym's effects only last during the interaction you pay for them.

ex. If, in some farcical example a future card might make a reality, you bypassed the ice, but another card effect made you re-encounter that ice on your same run, you'd have to repay for all the damage you did initially, it doesn't persist.
 
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Paxton Rice
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Whoops, my bad.
 
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Anarch is the most combo faction. I find Wyrm is best used as a combo rather than as a mono-breaker. sometimes, Anarch has other strength reduction effects making ice be close or at 0, and then you can use Wyrm to bypass the ice. Other times, you need to lower the strength to trigger other stuff, either to get Yog.0 and Mimic in range since they break efficiently but cant pump strength on their own, or to trigger early Parasite destruction (Parasite is a HUGE mvp for me), with no intention of breaking subs itself. If you are loaded, wyrm can get past anything solo, but that isnt that common in my experience, and I think it would be hard to build a "mono-Wyrm" strategy, but you could try! think of it as an enabler with various options to combo with other cards.

that said, i often cut it in favor of other anarch goodness
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Walter McCormick
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Although I don't foresee myself ever using Wyrm, I can think of a couple other instances where it's useful

1) Jinteki's Trap - Nothing breaks Trap subroutines, so to avoid the 1 Net damage, you need Wyrm or Crypsis. Wyrm Costs 1 + 6 Creds to break the Trap. Crypsis Costs 5 + 2 Creds to break the Trap + Optional Click to retain. Of course encountering a second Trap makes the worm less cost efficient. (Note: I included install cost, because in this specific case I'm analyzing putting the card in the deck SOLELY for encountering a Trap .. mileage may vary if you have other reasons, like those listed below)

2) Although Mimic was mentioned, Yog.0 can't be boosted. Of course, they're both Strength 3 .. so that means you're dealing with AT LEAST a Strength 4 ICE .. so the cost will be at least 4 to deal with a 4 power ICE just to get them in range of Mimic/Yog.0 Take note that all three cards are Anarch though, so it makes sense ... over time I expect Anarchs will continue to have stronger base, but non-self boosting Icebreakers.

3) Parasite ... Wyrm is an accellerated finishing blow after waiting for Parasite to chew it down. Once again, Anarch card.

TLDR ... this card is for Anarchs ... don't even look in its general direction if playing another Runner. It could have an influence value of 0 or 1 and it'd still be bad to look at it.
 
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