Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
48 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

TactDecks: Reign of Heroes» Forums » General

Subject: Kickstarting a Kickstarter rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Eric Etkin
United States
Gloversville
New York
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
biddi biddi biddi
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Inspired by this thread:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/841342/critique-my-cover

In a nutshell - it seems that despite attempts to fool myself otherwise, my Character art isn't very good.

 

 


I thought I could get by with what I have, but the bar keeps getting raised, and gamers expect to see quality, traditionally rendered fantasy art. My character cards may need to get replaced.

I don't like the idea of going into a KS campaign for TactDecks: Reign of Heroes without finalized art and a completely ready-to-go product. I've seen a lot of half-baked campaigns, and let's face it - despite gamers claiming "it's what's inside that counts," we're all sucked in by pretty art.

So - I've heard of attempts by others to do a "pre-campaign" campaign, where a small amount of funds in a limited campaign fuels a smart-looking KS presentation in a larger campaign.

But the question is - what sort of rewards can I offer for a goal that's purely for intangible pre-production artwork?

In a perfect world, I'd have two campaigns: Pre-production (art tweaks) and Manufacturing (the big enchilada). I'd create a campaign to source art, and then effectively offer backers from the Pre-production campaign "credit" towards the Manufacturing campaign - effectively, funds would carry over.

But it doesn't seem like I can structure KS that way.

So - Is this a lame idea? I'm thinking a goal of $1-2K, max... just enough to essentially re-skin the game with some kick-ass art pieces and draw attention to the Manufacturing campaign which would follow shortly after. But what could I offer backers from the pre-production campaign?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Hill
United Kingdom
Cambridge
Cambridgeshire
flag msg tools
designer
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Exclusive/signed/limited edition prints of (some of) the artwork?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Stout
United States
Syracuse
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maybe a promo for the game that is only available in that kickstarter?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Etkin
United States
Gloversville
New York
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
biddi biddi biddi
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Exclusive/signed/limited edition prints of (some of) the artwork?


I thought of that, but my understanding is that when I commission art for a card, the terms of the agreement would prevent me from making additional versions/formats of the work. I suppose that may vary from artist to artist.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
I think the art you show there is totally fine, I think this idea is excessive, but folks go wild for kickstarter campaigns so it'll probably work if you did it.

Other ideas are front the money for art yourself, or work with an artist who'd be willing to wait a couple months to get paid.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shawn George
United States
Toledo
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Open your eyes...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Personally I wouldn't support a "pre-production" kickstarter unless the reward was a massive discount off the finished product (even cheaper than the actual manufacturing kickstarter).

I'm not a game designer or artist, but my suggestion would be to pay an artist out of your own pocket to design a box cover and a component or two...just enough for backers to understand that the final art for the game will look much better than the placeholder art. Then when your kickstarter becomes fully funded, you can pay the same artist to come up with the rest of the game art. But just stick to one campaign.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Hill
United Kingdom
Cambridge
Cambridgeshire
flag msg tools
designer
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
MOTHDevil wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Exclusive/signed/limited edition prints of (some of) the artwork?


I thought of that, but my understanding is that when I commission art for a card, the terms of the agreement would prevent me from making additional versions/formats of the work. I suppose that may vary from artist to artist.


You should be negotiating the terms of the agreement with artist anyway.
If not, sooner or later, you're going to find yourself shafted by an artist.

Same applies to any work you contract out.

Oh, and another idea: A pre-production copy of the game!
(maybe even have one, or a very small number, hand-made copy (maybe with pre-production art) at a high pledge level, and lower quality art-less photocopies for lower pledge levels)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Walsh
United States
Batavia
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't like the idea of two different campaigns. What if you just made art tweaks a stretch goal and push back the delivery? Figure out what kind of money you would need then make that the stretch goal to complete your artwork.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Lacombe
Louisiana
msg tools
badge
Suddenly a shot rang out! A door slammed. The maid screamed. Suddenly a pirate ship appeared on the horizon! While millions of people were starving, the king lived in luxury. Meanwhile, on a small farm in Kansas, a boy was growing up.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Etkin
United States
Gloversville
New York
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
biddi biddi biddi
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
schwarzott wrote:
I think the art you show there is totally fine,


Thanks. Unfortunately, I only get about a 50% thumbs up on my art, and that's too much of a margin to risk going into a campaign with art the other 50% will turn their nose up at. I generally like my art (not to mention the literal equivalent of working a second job for the last three years to make it), but it's not about me anymore.

schwarzott wrote:
I think this idea is excessive, but folks go wild for kickstarter campaigns so it'll probably work if you did it.


I agree it's a little over the top... but I'm out of options. I'm hoping the small goal will help. $1-2K is a drop in the bucket compared to goals I've seen lately for game projects.

schwarzott wrote:
Other ideas are front the money for art yourself, or work with an artist who'd be willing to wait a couple months to get paid.


Well - I've already fronted quite a bit of my own $$$ into this. I can't afford additional dollars to sink into the game anymore. I'm basically one paycheck away from financial disaster.

I'm not comfortable with telling an artist that effectively they'll get paid when I get paid. That's just not how I do business. I don't mean to sound short there, but creative types get screwed enough as it is... I don't want to be another cog in a system that makes that standard practice.
3 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Hill
United Kingdom
Cambridge
Cambridgeshire
flag msg tools
designer
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
jwalsh1 wrote:
What if you just made art tweaks a stretch goal and push back the delivery? Figure out what kind of money you would need then make that the stretch goal to complete your artwork.


That's what Cheap Ass Games are doing with Unexploded Cow Deluxe Edition.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Etkin
United States
Gloversville
New York
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
biddi biddi biddi
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NateStraight wrote:


To be fair, the whole point of this post was figuring out ways to avoid this from happening. What can I do to offer tangible rewards and make a backer feel like they are getting something for the small investment?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Hill
United Kingdom
Cambridge
Cambridgeshire
flag msg tools
designer
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
MOTHDevil wrote:
schwarzott wrote:
I think the art you show there is totally fine,


Thanks. Unfortunately, I only get about a 50% thumbs up on my art, and that's too much of a margin to risk going into a campaign with art the other 50% will turn their nose up at. I generally like my art (not to mention the literal equivalent of working a second job for the last three years to make it), but it's not about me anymore.


I also like the art you've shown in this thread.

And, remember to factor in the fact that when asking for feedback on art people who dislike it, or can see ways to improve it, are going to be far more vocal than those that think it's fine as it is.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Lacombe
Louisiana
msg tools
badge
Suddenly a shot rang out! A door slammed. The maid screamed. Suddenly a pirate ship appeared on the horizon! While millions of people were starving, the king lived in luxury. Meanwhile, on a small farm in Kansas, a boy was growing up.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MOTHDevil wrote:
To be fair, the whole point of this post was figuring out ways to avoid this from happening. What can I do to offer tangible rewards and make a backer feel like they are getting something for the small investment?


I don't think it's worth trying.

If you believe in the game, but don't believe your art can sell it, figure out how much it will take to commission new art and then either set that as a Kickstarter stretch goal or simply make the Kickstarter pledge goal high enough that you can finance the new art.

Surely you can get a few sample pieces from your chosen artist's portfolio to put up?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ethan Nicholas
United States
Wake Forest
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Honestly, I feel like it will come across as money grubbing and leave a sour taste in people's mouths. I understand where you are coming from and I know it's not actually money grubbing, but hearing about this would turn me off enough that I wouldn't back the final project on principle.

You need to find an artist and get a few pieces of work done out of pocket. I don't believe Kickstarter should be viewed as "cover 100% of my expenses so I don't need to put up a single penny of my own money"; rather it should be viewed as helping you to get to your final goal while still involving a tremendous amount of time and some degree of money from you. Spending (say) a thousand dollars out of pocket on some initial artwork proves you are serious about getting this done and committed to your project, while at the same time making the final direction of the project visible and the project much more attractive to potential backers.

No one is going to complain that the art isn't 100% done as long as you are up front about things and we have a good idea of what it's going to look like when it's done, but if you aren't even confident enough to put a thousand dollars into your own project, why should perfect strangers come along and sink money into it?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Etkin
United States
Gloversville
New York
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
biddi biddi biddi
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NateStraight wrote:
MOTHDevil wrote:
To be fair, the whole point of this post was figuring out ways to avoid this from happening. What can I do to offer tangible rewards and make a backer feel like they are getting something for the small investment?


I don't think it's worth trying.

If you believe in the game, but don't believe your art can sell it, figure out how much it will take to commission new art and then either set that as a Kickstarter stretch goal or simply make the Kickstarter pledge goal high enough that you can finance the new art.

Surely you can get a few sample pieces from your chosen artist's portfolio to put up?


I could probably fund one or two pieces out of pocket and use those as "samples."

I just had my heart set on starting the campaign with the game all set to go.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Lacombe
Louisiana
msg tools
badge
Suddenly a shot rang out! A door slammed. The maid screamed. Suddenly a pirate ship appeared on the horizon! While millions of people were starving, the king lived in luxury. Meanwhile, on a small farm in Kansas, a boy was growing up.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MOTHDevil wrote:
I just had my heart set on starting the campaign with the game all set to go.


That seems contrary to the purpose of Kickstarter.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Etkin
United States
Gloversville
New York
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
biddi biddi biddi
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
MOTHDevil wrote:
schwarzott wrote:
I think the art you show there is totally fine,


Thanks. Unfortunately, I only get about a 50% thumbs up on my art, and that's too much of a margin to risk going into a campaign with art the other 50% will turn their nose up at. I generally like my art (not to mention the literal equivalent of working a second job for the last three years to make it), but it's not about me anymore.


I also like the art you've shown in this thread.


Yeah - that's what kills me. I've gone through all this time (my gods, the time) and effort making it myself... In comparison to a lot of games out there that aren't produced by Big Game Companies, I think it's actually pretty damn good... but it's not MtG or LOTR LCG quality so I get dinged.

I realize detractors have a tendency to be much more vocal (hell, I do that myself sometimes), but it doesn't fill me with a feeling of confidence that people will actually dig into the game beyond the surface details.

My other issue is that I hate game art with wildly varying styles, so if I commit to using a traditional artist, all of my established designs are going to have to go.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jessey
Canada
flag msg tools
designer
I also purchased this and do not know what to do with it!
badge
I purchased this and do not know what to do with it!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MOTHDevil wrote:

I just had my heart set on starting the campaign with the game all set to go.


If this is the last thing you are worrying about your game is all set and ready to go. The time it takes to get art and put it in place is nothing compared to the time it (should) take to design and balance a robust system such as the one you have.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Etkin
United States
Gloversville
New York
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
biddi biddi biddi
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
D6Frog wrote:
Kickstarting startup funds seems like a really greasy move. If your game is not ready, then put it up as a free print&play here so it can get ripped apart, analyzed, and many suggestions made to make it better.


I have. Between BGG and my own personal site, the PNP files of V2 have been downloaded over 200 times since I put them up about half a year ago.

Since then - not a single comment. Not one. It's possible people hate the game. It's possible there's too much there to print and assemble. It's possible people haven't actually played it (I've run into that problem with many of the physical playtest copies I've sent out).

All I know is that in its current v2.5 iteration of 200+ cards, 100+ tokens, and 12 6" tiles, the game is probably beyond PNP capabilities at this point. I couldn't get people to PNP the V2 version which was just cards... it's gotten way past that at this point.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ian O'Toole
Australia
Queens Park
WA
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

If you really believe in your game, I'd advise hiring a professional illustrator and graphic designer to produce a logo, box art and some indicative card samples, then budget finishing the art into the Kickstarter target.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Etkin
United States
Gloversville
New York
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
biddi biddi biddi
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NateStraight wrote:
MOTHDevil wrote:
I just had my heart set on starting the campaign with the game all set to go.


That seems contrary to the purpose of Kickstarter.


I really don't remember where I heard this (Richard Bliss? One of my gamer buddies?), but my understanding is that games that are funded - really funded well - are generally those that are very, very close to turnkey.

I know if I was checking out a new project, I'd be much more inclined to fund if the designer looked like he had all his pieces together.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I thought your cover was fine.

But then I do own Gauntlet II for the NES.

And I've played Diablo.

Maybe it looked like a video game. What do I know.

Personally I saw magicians / characters in a ruin/dungeon.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The archer is fine for me. Look Linkish / like that girl playing Zelda music.

I don't know whatever I would ever be the costumer for your game though. So maybe my opinion doesn't matter. I should had answered in your previous thread. I had opened it earlier ..

"If people can sell glory to rome" (There's likely worse looking games, I don't know how say battle line look.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
MOTHDevil wrote:
Well - I've already fronted quite a bit of my own $$$ into this. I can't afford additional dollars to sink into the game anymore. I'm basically one paycheck away from financial disaster.

I'm not comfortable with telling an artist that effectively they'll get paid when I get paid. That's just not how I do business. I don't mean to sound short there, but creative types get screwed enough as it is... I don't want to be another cog in a system that makes that standard practice.


I understand you not being able to pay them out of pocket right now. What I suggested is talking to an artist, explaining to them the process and why having the art prior to the funding is important to you, have a timeline of X days after the art completion they'll be paid, put it in the contract. It's very common when doing creative work to do the work and then get paid for it a month or two after completion.

the suggestion for getting a cover done and a few pieces for the game was also an excellent one. you don't need the game "ready to ship" in anything other than a game design standpoint. From a game design it should have been ready to ship long ago.

I just looked at the art on this page:
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/70740/tactdecks
and there's nothing wrong with it. You'll never please everyone, I say go with what you've got and if you want new art point that out when fundraising.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.