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Subject: Reacting side rebasing rss

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Patrick B
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This is such an elementary question, yet I don't know if we've been playing it right nor now.

According to 8.8, "Fleets must make a legal naval move [8.22] to return to a port".

8.22 "Activate fleets move up to three sea-zones (two for non-marine troop transports), stopping when they enter a sea-zone where the enemy exerts limited or dominant influence.... Both the act of leaving a port (or coast area for a troop transport) during a Movement or rebasing phase , and entering a port (Rebasing Phase only) count as a zone entered."

Now, I had always figured that reacting fleets would only move TWO sea-zones (8.25) when they rebased; however, going my the strict rules above, have I been reading that wrong? Can rebasing reacting fleets actually move farther then they did when they were reacting?
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Rick Young
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Reacting fleets rebase follow the same rules as phasing player fleets for rebasing.
 
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Patrick B
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So, fleets move 3 sea-zones? (2 for troop transports and marines?)
 
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Forest Green Hobbit
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WOW. Great question. I can tell you how I have always played it, but then reading the rules in detail in regards to your question Patrick, I realize that this may be wrong, which would really throw the game out of wack.

"8.25 NAVAL REACTION: .... Reacting fleets can move up to two sea-zones [three using 7.6], following the rules for naval movement [8.22], to enter the targeted sea-zone. "

with

"8.22 NAVAL MOVEMENT: Activated fleets move up to three sea-zones (two for non-marine troop transports), stopping when they enter a sea-zone where the enemy exerts limited or dominant influence [8.13]. Each fleet may only move once per Naval Movement Phase unless using extended naval operations (8.23).
a) Both the act of leaving a port (or coastal area for a troop transport) during a Movement or Rebasing Phase, and entering a port (Rebasing Phase only) count as a zone entered.
"

would seem to indicate that indeed one of the two sea zones allocated for NAVAL REACTION would have to be expended on "the act of leaving a port". This would mean that Japanese fleets in Truk could only react to the adjacent sea zones, and not into the Solomon Sea. Now I have seen plenty of discussion and strategy based on the idea that fleets in Truk could react to the Solomon Sea if there was no interveening influence. This would also mean that US fleets in Hawaii could not react into Eastern North Pacific to defend against an invasion of Midway without expenditure of a Special Action for Code Break. WOW, it would even mean that the entire IJN in Honshu could not react to an invasion of Iwo Jima or Okinawa. I am pretty sure all of these reactions are allowed.

HOWEVER, if the word "phase" was taken out of rule 8.22.a it may have the meaning intended. Such as changing it to (underline added, strike through deleted):

"8.22.a) Both the act of leaving a port (or coastal area for a troop transport) during a Naval Movement or Naval Rebasing Phase, and entering a port (Naval Rebasing Phase only) count as a zone entered. Leaving a port during Naval Reaction does not count as a zone entered."

However, you have a very good question. If indeed naval reaction is so limited to the adjacent sea zone, this would change my game play drastically. Think of the impact on WERP increases not to mention the above situations I have mentioned.
 
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Forest Green Hobbit
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Rick Young wrote:
Reacting fleets rebase follow the same rules as phasing player fleets for rebasing.


Understood, but a better question in this case would be:

Does the act of leaving a port count as a sea zone entered for Naval Reaction?
 
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Patrick B
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I always took it as such.
 
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Patrick B
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Tom Good wrote:
would seem to indicate that indeed one of the two sea zones allocated for NAVAL REACTION would have to be expended on "the act of leaving a port". This would mean that Japanese fleets in Truk could only react to the adjacent sea zones, and not into the Solomon Sea.


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your wording, but yes: the Japanese CAN make it to the Solomon Sea from Truk: they can react with a 2 sea-zone move: 1st move gets them from Truk to West Central Pacific. 2nd move gets them from West Central Pacific to Solomon Sea.
 
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Forest Green Hobbit
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Okay, I have found some official examples:

Play Book 14.31: It is the allied player's turn. Japan has fleets in Truk. The allies make a naval move to the Solomon Sea at 14.32.B. At 14.31.C, a Japanese fleet in Truk reacts into the Solomon Sea. At 14.31.D, the allies make a naval move into the South Central Pacific. Then at 14.31.E japan reacts with 3 more fleets from Truk to South Central Pacific. See figure 11 on page 12 of the Play Book. It clearly shows Japan reacting two sea zones (or THREE if you count the act of leaving Truk).

I checked the "ASIA ENGULFED FAQ Version 5 April 15, 2008" too and there is no mention that this is not correct.
 
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Forest Green Hobbit
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bignickel wrote:
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your wording, but yes: the Japanese CAN make it to the Solomon Sea from Truk: they can react with a 2 sea-zone move: 1st move gets them from Truk to West Central Pacific. 2nd move gets them from West Central Pacific to Solomon Sea.


Yes I agree. That means that the act of leaving port does NOT count toward sea zones entered for Naval Reaction.

So in the end, to answer you original question, "Can rebasing reacting fleets actually move farther then they did when they were reacting?", the anser is YES. They react with 2 sea zones and rebase 3 sea zones, but during rebasing one of the sea zones must be expended to enter port.

So in my examples, the fleets which reacted from Truk to the Solomon Sea could rebase back to Truk, OR THEY COULD KEEP GOING TO ENIWETOK!

That was a bit of a mind bender, but I am glad it did not change my understanding of the rules.
 
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Łukasz 'farmer'
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Tom Good wrote:
Yes I agree. That means that the act of leaving port does NOT count toward sea zones entered for Naval Reaction.

Noooo! Leaving a port always counts toward sea zones entered for Naval Movement!
When you make a reaction, you can move only 2 zones (leaving a port counts).

Your fleet is in Truk, and now, count with me:
1st zone entered - West Central Pacific [from Truk]
2nd zone entered - Solomon Sea [from West Central Pacific]

When you are rebasing, you are doing it in the same manner:
1st zone entered - West Central Pacific [from Solomon Sea]
2nd zone entered - Truk [from West Central Pacific]
3rd move in rebasing - isn't needed, when you want to go back to Truk

RuleBook wrote:
8.22 NAVAL MOVEMENT: Activated fleets move up to three
sea-zones (two for non-marine troop transports), stopping when
they enter a sea-zone where the enemy exerts limited or dominant
influence [8.13]. Each fleet may only move once per Naval Movement
Phase unless using extended naval operations (8.23).
a) Both the act of leaving a port (or coastal area for a troop transport)
during a Movement or Rebasing Phase, and entering a port (Rebasing
Phase only) count as a zone entered.


yours,
farm
 
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Forest Green Hobbit
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farmeriusz wrote:
Noooo! Leaving a port always counts toward sea zones entered for Naval Movement!
When you make a reaction, you can move only 2 zones (leaving a port counts)


Yes, you are correct. I can't count. I agree.

I was confused by the "act of leaving port counts as a sea zone entered" bit, such as:
1-leave Truk
2-enter West Central Pacific

but, of course, leaving port and entering the first sea zone is the same act and not separate acts.

Sorry for the confusion. In the end, Patrick is correct in that rebasing reacting fleets may rebase farther than they originally reacted.

 
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Łukasz 'farmer'
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No problem, at all .

Also, remeber guys, that alternatively to ordinary rebasing, you always can rebase to your home port, regardless from distance and influences.

yours,
farm
 
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Forest Green Hobbit
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Also, in researching patrick's question, it seems that Japan could preform '7.5 Japanese Extensive Rebasing' during the opponent's rebasing phase. I have never seen this done, and would think that it is not in the "spirit" of the rules.
 
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Patrick B
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Well, Japanese Extensive Rebasing is a Special Action, and thus costs a hefty amount of werps. But to oil-poor Japan, it can be a life-line.
 
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