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Subject: basic deck building games = this game rss

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Dustin
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after watching drive thru reviews video of this game, I can safely remove it from the wishlist. It's really the basic gameplay of most deckbuilders out there. offer nothing neat (from what I could tell) just a dc skin.

I haven't seen nothing but a pic of legendary (marvels deck builder) and it looks to have way more going on.
 
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Thomas King
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Marvel has a deck builder? surprise
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Dustin
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Montag451 wrote:
Marvel has a deck builder? :surprise:


Legendary
Picture from tom vasel, I hope he doesn't mind me linking

https://twitter.com/thedicetower/status/236205242348339200/p...
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Thomas King
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Watched the Drive-Thru preview of DC. I'm not sure I have words for how bland that design is. It's... no words.

And my starter character can also be bought by others as a "hero" card? What? How does that make sense? Guess it's up there with giving Batman super powers. They just wanted to get a popular theme into an easy, re-themable game.

Very disappointed.
 
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Todd
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can you post the link to the video?
 
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Matt Shinners
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Falcons wrote:
can you post the link to the video?


http://www.2d6.org/2012/08/2d6-org-live-blogging-gencon-2012...
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Paul Glickman
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Huh. This is exactly as was expected from what we've seen so far. It's Ascension with only one resource - but it looks like it could be super cool.
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Derek Graeff
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I'll probably still buy it if only because I like the ip, but frankly speaking trying to fit this so that it can be played with other dbgs they are releasing (WOW Clash of Heroes, Penny Arcade, etc.) makes me feel that they just are not doing the ip any justice.

On the other hand, the Marvel DBG looks fun and interesting and has more of the comic feel to it than this one seems - so I am much more looking forward to that one. Just wish somebody could take a demo at gencon and video tape the damned thing for me to watch (sigh)
 
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Brad Metz
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I don't know, simple doesn't have to mean bad. It'll depend on what twists they've put on the cards as to whether the single resource is going to be a problem. I'm willing to give Cryptozooic the benefit of the doubt since the Penny Arcade game is absolutely phenomenal (esp: the expansion). I thought this new crop of DBGs were going to use the same system, but it's looking that at least for the DC game they've changed things up quite a bit.
 
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Dan Patriss
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The DC demoing at Gen Con was constantly packed and everyone seemed to enjoy it.

I got to play it and loved it. But I am also an admitted DBG fanboy.
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Patrick Dolan
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After stopping by the Crytozoic booth repeatedly, I finally got to play this on Saturday when they opened up a second table to demo this game.

Long story short; I didn't think it was a very good game. It felt like Ascension, but with fewer interesting decisions to make, less strategic choices, and less personality.

Basically, you choose a Hero card, who has a special ability (I was the Flash, who gets to start the game, and gets to draw an extra card the first time you use an effect to draw a card on your turn), and get a deck of "Punch" and "Vulnerability" cards. Punches are worth Power, Vulnerabilities are useless.

There is a center row of 6 cards; they can be Powers, Locations, Equipment Heroes or Villains. A separate deck of "Super" Villains is also present.

On your turn, you play any or all cards from your hand and use any Power that you generate to buy cards from the center row, or from the Super Villain deck. When you buy a Super Villain, the next Super Villain is revealed, and 'attacks' everyone in the game. Once all the Super Villains are purchased, the game ends and whoever has the most Victory Points worth of cards in their deck, wins.

My main problems with the game are;
- I really dislike the fact that you start the game with cards that provide absolutely no use to you whatsoever, and no easy way to get rid of them.
- The use of a single resource means that there aren't nearly as many interesting decisions to make. It also means that players who jump ahead early tend to stay ahead, as they have more power to buy more cards to trigger bigger effects, generating more power, etc.
- The fact that everything you spend resources on goes into your deck means that I never felt like I was actually defeating anything, just buying stuff. It also felt weird that not only could other players buy my characters powers, sidekicks, and even my character himself, but they could buy villains that would then trigger effects when played from their deck.
- Some powers seemed extremly out of balance with each other. For instance, Flash's power only works if you get a card in your hand that lets you draw a card, and only once per turn. Aquaman's power, on the other hand, allowed him to 'float' cards to the top of his deck after buying them, as long as they were under a certain value, which not only gave him a tremendous amount of hand control, but was consistently useful.
- And lastly, the combination of mix & match powers, villains, heroes & locations, coupled with way that villains are just another card to buy, really made me feel like I was just playing an overly long drafting session, I never felt like I was building up a hero (or team), and taking down bad guys. I was just buying an assortment of triggers and abilities to make it easier to buy more.

I never got particularly excited about accomplishing anything, I never felt like I was able to plan ahead and execute any sort of strategy, or make any decisions that would help me adapt to a change in the game state. Granted, some of this is likely due to the fact that we played a five player game, but I suspect that these are simply core flaws that are magnified with more players, not the result of more players participating.

I'm a big comic book fan and I like what Crytozoic has been doing lately, so I was really looking forward to this game. Unfortunately the combination of bare bones mechanics, coupled with an overall lack of 'superheroic' gameplay means that I'm not particularly inclined to pick this one up. Hopefully the Marvel DCG turns out better.



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Dan Patriss
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Pat Dolan wrote:
After stopping by the Crytozoic booth repeatedly, I finally got to play this on Saturday when they opened up a second table to demo this game.

Long story short; I didn't think it was a very good game. It felt like Ascension, but with fewer interesting decisions to make, less strategic choices, and less personality.


I wanted to "rebut" some of these a bit. Not to argue but to give another "side" of this from another person who tried this and loved it...

First I thought it was good but also felt it was at it's core DC-Ascension, but to me a GOOD thing.

Next there were good decisisons to make, you just have to look and think. Example at my table being, couple people just buying the most expensive thing, thinking it's the obvious choice (as is the "complaint" some make with Ascension and DBG in general). And then me wiping the floor with my table b/c I made the strategic choice in the game.


Pat Dolan wrote:
My main problems with the game are;
- I really dislike the fact that you start the game with cards that provide absolutely no use to you whatsoever, and no easy way to get rid of them.


Welcome to deck-building. It might be over-used right now but hey all of these start off with useless cards at first.

The destroying of cards is in the DC game but you might not have gotten very many of them out in the row in yours. Having a plan in case this happens is kinda part of the strategy of playing em. A couple of them came out in mine and I gobbled up one or two. Being able to get rid of 2 of the weakness -1 VP cards is what won me the game (I won 30-29 over a former magic pro (I think that's who someone said he was... the others at the table weren't really close)

Pat Dolan wrote:
- The use of a single resource means that there aren't nearly as many interesting decisions to make. It also means that players who jump ahead early tend to stay ahead, as they have more power to buy more cards to trigger bigger effects, generating more power, etc.


The only one resource thing is something I worry about as well, but for now it seems to work just fine. The run-away leader thing I think (and hope) was more b/c they were playing a smaller/shorter game with only 4 super villains vs the real game which you play something like 8-9 (From talking to a dev/demo guy he agreed and he said he played something like 300 games of it)

Pat Dolan wrote:
- The fact that everything you spend resources on goes into your deck means that I never felt like I was actually defeating anything, just buying stuff. It also felt weird that not only could other players buy my characters powers, sidekicks, and even my character himself, but they could buy villains that would then trigger effects when played from their deck.


To me defeating other heroes isn't "thematic" but that's just my opinion on that one. That's why the villains in the center, and big villains, have "attack effects" which basically slow you down. The buying of your powers helps them, but not as much as you, so them buying yours could hurt you more then help them. Did you see any Batman's or Superman's getting their powers/equip? Trust me you don't want that, they would clean house if they did.

Pat Dolan wrote:
- Some powers seemed extremly out of balance with each other. For instance, Flash's power only works if you get a card in your hand that lets you draw a card, and only once per turn. Aquaman's power, on the other hand, allowed him to 'float' cards to the top of his deck after buying them, as long as they were under a certain value, which not only gave him a tremendous amount of hand control, but was consistently useful.


I too thought the Flash to have the worst power and thought Aquaman's to be one of the best. However, it becomes useless at mid to end game, b/c you can only topdeck a card worth 5 or less. I played Martian Manhunter and abused the heck out of his (+3 power when I play 2 or more heroes, +3 power when I play 2 of more villains).

However seeing people do real well with Supes and The Bat, I think they ALL can be overpowered. (IIR Supes could grab his own super power out of either his deck or discard and use them... quite powerful.... and The Bat gets a bonus using his equipment)



Pat Dolan wrote:
- And lastly, the combination of mix & match powers, villains, heroes & locations, coupled with way that villains are just another card to buy, really made me feel like I was just playing an overly long drafting session, I never felt like I was building up a hero (or team), and taking down bad guys. I was just buying an assortment of triggers and abilities to make it easier to buy more.

I never got particularly excited about accomplishing anything, I never felt like I was able to plan ahead and execute any sort of strategy, or make any decisions that would help me adapt to a change in the game state. Granted, some of this is likely due to the fact that we played a five player game, but I suspect that these are simply core flaws that are magnified with more players, not the result of more players participating.

I'm a big comic book fan and I like what Crytozoic has been doing lately, so I was really looking forward to this game. Unfortunately the combination of bare bones mechanics, coupled with an overall lack of 'superheroic' gameplay means that I'm not particularly inclined to pick this one up. Hopefully the Marvel DCG turns out better.






Again, welcome to DBGs, it's kind of a hard thing to take a hero universe and try and get it ALL in there. To me, I think they did a great job. The ease of entry will be great and worth-wild for them to get new players to it, and the depth (which is there just like it is in Ascension) will keep them there for a while.

The expandability of the game is HUGE. JL expacs, Doom Patrol LSH expansion packs... the sky is the limit to what they can add. Oh how I look forward to playing in the DC tourneys at next year's con!
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Adam O'Brien
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I will agree that the game lacks innovation; the only difference I saw vs other deck-builders was the player powers based on starting hero, and the communal "super-villain" that is the clock (and big point-scorer) for the game.

However, as a light, fast-playing DBG I thought it was very good. You can't go into it thinking it will be Caylus-level strategy. It is in essence a filler.

It is fun and fast, and as a DC comics fan I enjoyed the theme and references on the cards quite a bit. I will likely buy it despite not needing ANOTHER deck-builder.

My 2¢
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Flash's power is decent if you get some card drawing cards. If you get an early Location, which allows for an extra card draw if you buy/play certain card types, he is powerful. ALSO, and this is the best part: Flash goes first! Says so right on his card. So even if his ability is slightly underpowered (which is was not during my game), he might get an extra turn over some other players. I say it's balanced, but then I only watched one and played one game.
.
 
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Patrick Dolan
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For what it's worth, I've played a few DBG's in the past (Dominion, Ascension, Thunderstone, Resident Evil, Penny Arcade, Tanto Cuore, Nightfall, Heroes of Graxia, Kazume Goddess, Eminent Domain, 3012 and probably a couple others I can't recall.), so I'm well aware of the basic mechanics involved in these games, that's one of the main reasons I have so many complaints with the DC game.

For instance, off the top of my head I can't think of a single DBG that forces you to start the game with cards in your deck that are completely useless. Sure, you'll have some that you'll want to replace, but they provide some sort of benefit.

As for the lack of decision making, just comparing the basic purchasing mechanics of DC to Ascension highlights the overall lack of choices that DC provides the player.

In DC, you have five available cards in the center row, plus one 'always available' card. As you buy cards in the center, they are not replaced, so there is a hard and fast limit on what sort of variety you can acquire on your turn.

In Ascension, you've got six available cards in the center row, plus two always available cards. As you buy cards in the center, they are immediately, increasing the amount of variety that you will have available.

Once you add in a second type of resource (which DC doesn't have), and effects that trigger as new cards are revealed (which DC doesn't have), and the variety of interesting decisions increases even more (even the order you buy cards in suddenly acquires a new level of strategy, for instance!).

As for the theme, if a game is going to involve recruiting characters, acquiring gear and battling villains, I sort of expect a functional difference between these three elements. Instead, DC asks you to just 'buy' each of these things and toss 'em into your deck.

I'm not even saying that the DC game is necessarily bad, but compared to the titles that are already out there (as well as upcoming titles), it's extremely thin in terms of mechanics and player decisions, and it doesn't capture the feel of any type of super heroic action.

Honestly, if the mechanics had at least made me feel like I was recruiting a team and battling villains, I could easily deal with the simpler game mechanics. But instead, I just feel like I'm out shopping, trying to get the best value (VP) for my money (Power), with a few comic book illustrations pasted on top to add 'personality'.

Ironically, both Penny Arcade and 3012 (both made by Cryptozoic) have mechanics that are not only deeper and more interesting, but do a better job of creating the feel that I'm building up a character/team and taking down bad guys... And to be honest, that may very well be part of the reason I'm so disappointed in DC...
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Erik Larsen
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I've played 100's of Ascension games and at least 1/3 of those games there comes a point where I'm board locked by one or the other resource and must spend my next few turns buying mystics and militia or just killing cultist. A two resource system may allow for a greater variance of total choices but the problem is once you start down a path your ability to select all choices become more limited than the one resource system. For example in two resource I either pick A, B or a limited A&B to focus my build around. In a one resource game you don't have to worry about that you get to choose from all the cards.

 
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Thomas King
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elarsen wrote:
I've played 100's of Ascension games and at least 1/3 of those games there comes a point where I'm board locked by one or the other resource and must spend my next few turns buying mystics and militia or just killing cultist. A two resource system may allow for a greater variance of total choices but the problem is once you start down a path your ability to select all choices become more limited than the one resource system. For example in two resource I either pick A, B or a limited A&B to focus my build around. In a one resource game you don't have to worry about that you get to choose from all the cards.


Actually, that's not a problem with a multi-resource system, it's a problem with Ascension's randomized center row. You can never plan on what's coming up, just hope something good comes. Rune Age has 3 resources and juggles them all pretty well.
 
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Paul Glickman
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Montag451 wrote:
elarsen wrote:
I've played 100's of Ascension games and at least 1/3 of those games there comes a point where I'm board locked by one or the other resource and must spend my next few turns buying mystics and militia or just killing cultist. A two resource system may allow for a greater variance of total choices but the problem is once you start down a path your ability to select all choices become more limited than the one resource system. For example in two resource I either pick A, B or a limited A&B to focus my build around. In a one resource game you don't have to worry about that you get to choose from all the cards.


Actually, that's not a problem with a multi-resource system, it's a problem with Ascension's randomized center row. You can never plan on what's coming up, just hope something good comes. Rune Age has 3 resources and juggles them all pretty well.


Actually, it's a problem with the two combined. One resource random center is fine (I'm working on my own design and it works great, so long as the center moves on its own and there are very few or no cards no one wants). Two resources DBG would be fine too. It's the random center + two resource that is a problem.

From the latest news, it looks like the meat of the game is in the card interactions instead of the basic mechanics. The mechanics are very bare-bones, but from what we've seen, there are some very cool cards.
 
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Dan Patriss
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Paul G wrote:
Montag451 wrote:
elarsen wrote:
I've played 100's of Ascension games and at least 1/3 of those games there comes a point where I'm board locked by one or the other resource and must spend my next few turns buying mystics and militia or just killing cultist. A two resource system may allow for a greater variance of total choices but the problem is once you start down a path your ability to select all choices become more limited than the one resource system. For example in two resource I either pick A, B or a limited A&B to focus my build around. In a one resource game you don't have to worry about that you get to choose from all the cards.


Actually, that's not a problem with a multi-resource system, it's a problem with Ascension's randomized center row. You can never plan on what's coming up, just hope something good comes. Rune Age has 3 resources and juggles them all pretty well.


Actually, it's a problem with the two combined. One resource random center is fine (I'm working on my own design and it works great, so long as the center moves on its own and there are very few or no cards no one wants). Two resources DBG would be fine too. It's the random center + two resource that is a problem.

From the latest news, it looks like the meat of the game is in the card interactions instead of the basic mechanics. The mechanics are very bare-bones, but from what we've seen, there are some very cool cards.


Why is random center and 2 resources a problem? Nothing wrong at all with Ascension.
 
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Paul Glickman
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About one in fine games is very boring and things don't move.

Ascension is by no means bad, but it has a large number of flaws that keep it from really competing with the other stuff out there. You make a priority list, you follow it religiously, you win 70% of your games. You learn to adapt from it where necessary, and you win 75% of your games.

 
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Dan Patriss
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Paul G wrote:
About one in fine games is very boring and things don't move.

Ascension is by no means bad, but it has a large number of flaws that keep it from really competing with the other stuff out there. You make a priority list, you follow it religiously, you win 70% of your games. You learn to adapt from it where necessary, and you win 75% of your games.



A good player who knows the game winning 75% of his games is fine. I think if you won too much then it would cease to be fun.

I think your one in five games is a stretch. I think it's much less. The priority list is one thing but it's the adaptability and being able to manipulate your strategy which truly separates a good Ascension player from another
 
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Paul Glickman
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No, but that's not right. I don't make good decisions or adapt, I have a simple priority system. A bot with my priority list would win around 45% of its games against me.

One in ten or twenty games I'll see an actual decision point. Last time was Starchild vs. Nihilmancer at 4, but it was obviously the Nihilmancer, honestly.

The game plays itself.
 
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Dan Patriss
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I think you need better opponents.

The game might play itself in that matter with AI opponents but actual people who know what they are doing it's a bit more complicated then "plays itself".
 
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Paul Glickman
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I have very good opponents with years of competitive Magic playing under their belts. It's a priority list. Very few combos, and the harsh limitations and luck-based factors in how the cards come out make the entire game autopilot.
 
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