Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
58 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming

Subject: Why does AP always have to be painted as the devil? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David B
United States
Chesapeake
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It seems nearly every time I read a review, AP is mentioned. If AP is low, it is stated as a plus and if AP is high, the game is given a negative bent for it. I can understand some games are terrible as AP grows. If the decisions are not that difficult, then the game should move along. But there are some games where I appreciate a little AP. While others are planning, I am also planning. It gives ME more time while they are thinking. Torres, for example, is one of my favorites. I am a chess player and I don't mind having to examine the board in a game where that may be called for. I realize that in a 4 playre game of Torres, the board may change dramatically from one turn to the next, so any long range plans may be thwarted. But there are plenty of short term tactical situations that should be examined. I personally, in some games, do not mind the downtime and the opportunity to think. I am a bit surprised so many gamers are averse to thinking.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CHAPEL
United States
Round Rock
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
"that's a smith and wesson, and you've had your six"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I love games with potential for high AP....It's the people who are prone to AP that I don't want to play with.
49 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Scatliff
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
It's about time, too.
badge
I hate overtext but love irony.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pfctsqr wrote:
I am a bit surprised so many gamers are averse to thinking.

They're not. But I think there's an exponentially decreasing return to AP.

Say you're just given a board situation in a hypothetical game that you're familiar with but aren't in this particular game.

You could probably spot a 1-point move immediately.
You could probably spot a 3-point move with about 5 seconds of study.
You could probably spot a 5-point move with about 1 minutes of study.
You could probably spot a 7-point move with about 5 minutes of study.

Now let's say there's a 9-point move out there, but it would take 15 minutes of study. Is it worth looking for it? For some people, that answer is yes. Finding the optimal move is part of the puzzle.

But some people (like me) just want to play the damn game. Even the 7-point move would be not worth the wait for me.
22 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hugh G. Rection
United States
La Mesa
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, we have twins in our group that both got the AP gene, so the pain is more like AP² for us.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ian Klinck
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If one player's time thinking is useful to the other players to plan their moves, etc., then it isn't really AP.

AP is when one player slows down the game by taking a lot longer than the other players to play.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Ferejohn
United States
Mountain View
California
flag msg tools
badge
Pitying fools as hard as I can...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Smoo wrote:
pfctsqr wrote:
I am a bit surprised so many gamers are averse to thinking.

They're not. But I think there's an exponentially decreasing return to AP.

Say you're just given a board situation in a hypothetical game that you're familiar with but aren't in this particular game.

You could probably spot a 1-point move immediately.
You could probably spot a 3-point move with about 5 seconds of study.
You could probably spot a 5-point move with about 1 minutes of study.
You could probably spot a 7-point move with about 5 minutes of study.

Now let's say there's a 9-point move out there, but it would take 15 minutes of study. Is it worth looking for it? For some people, that answer is yes. Finding the optimal move is part of the puzzle.

But some people (like me) just want to play the damn game. Even the 7-point move would be not worth the wait for me.


Except for most AP-prone people I know, the additional study generally does not result in a better move, or even a different move. It is exacly what it says - paralysis. When a game in knocked for being AP-prone, it's really a warning that if you play with people who can get into this state, they may take a long time to make a move, which can be frustrating.
45 
 Thumb up
0.03
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Friedberg
United States
Warsaw
IN
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
iklinck wrote:
If one player's time thinking is useful to the other players to plan their moves, etc., then it isn't really AP.

AP is when one player slows down the game by taking a lot longer than the other players to play.


+1 insightful. It's when one person has a DISPROPORTIONAL amount of AP compared to the rest.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brook Gentlestream
United States
Long Beach
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

People on BGG get caught up in prejudicial language terms. What one person calls a "tactical" game others might call "AP-prone".

I like tough decisions. I like watching my opponent squirm, knowing there are no really GREAT moves to take, only the lesser of several evils that I've laid out for him.

When I show people my design, Conquest For The Stars, I tell them that the game is designed to give them a headache.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dean Adam
New Zealand
Auckland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cferejohn wrote:

Except for most AP-prone people I know, the additional study generally does not result in a better move, or even a different move. It is exacly what it says - paralysis.


To me this captures it, I've got no ... well... fewer concerns with waiting 10-15 minutes for someone to make a move when playing chess knowing that they are working out their best move.... I love that moment when they play and I'm like holy shit I hadnt seen that, or just the murmur of nice move...

AP is where someone vacillates endlessly between a couple of hard choices because they can't tell which will be better - some games just don't give you the info to help inform the choice, except you know that one might be better than the other. Then they randomly make a third low benefit move that makes everyone groan...

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Theissen
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AP is a personal trait. If someone can fall into AP playing Kittens in a Blender... That is just a problem!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dr Edward Locke
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Knightmare6669 wrote:
AP is a personal trait. If someone can fall into AP playing Kittens in a Blender... That is just a problem!


Yep, this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Lacson
United States
Alamogordo
New Mexico
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pfctsqr wrote:
Torres, for example, is one of my favorites. I am a chess player and I don't mind having to examine the board in a game where that may be called for. I realize that in a 4 playre game of Torres, the board may change dramatically from one turn to the next, so any long range plans may be thwarted.
Now, imagine 2 people in Torres taking 10-15 minutes for their turn and the game lasting 3.5 hours? Would it still be as enjoyable? Some people may not mind, but playing a 45-60 minute game for over 3 hours gets aggravating.

MWChapel wrote:
I love games with potential for high AP....It's the people who are prone to AP that I don't want to play with.
This.

For instance, Dominant Species is known for it's AP syndrome. I won't mind waiting 5-7 minutes for everyone to take their turn. However, if you make me wait 30 minutes on your turn, I'm going to watch TV or play another game on my iPad until your turn is over.

AP isn't bad, unless it's excessive.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
reaching out from the in-between spaces...
United States
Baldwin
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
moonglow wrote:
some games just don't give you the info to help inform the choice, except you know that one might be better than the other.


this was us last night. A 3 player game of Kingburg turned into a 3 hour game. Trying to figure out all the myriad combinations of dice when you're rolling 4 dice, with a +2 token and the +1,-1 ability, made it frustrating as you tried to figure out the best way to get that 1 more resource.

Jorune
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Drown
United States
Sunnyvale
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
cferejohn wrote:

Except for most AP-prone people I know, the additional study generally does not result in a better move, or even a different move. It is exacly what it says - paralysis. When a game in knocked for being AP-prone, it's really a warning that if you play with people who can get into this state, they may take a long time to make a move, which can be frustrating.


This is what AP is to me, the inability to make a decision once the variables are put in front of them.

Another example would be that there are three 5-point positions on the board, all of which will result in different strategies needing to be followed in future turns, which will result in the most gain in the future turns? You don't know, so you agonize over which is "better", playing through future player turns in your head to try to determine which will impact others or you the most.

The inability to make a decision when the number of variables is high, and the outcomes are indeterminate.

Multiplayer games that are "AP prone", can be boring to play with AP players if the ability to plan during their phase is not available (tactical decisions change drastically based on previous player movement). Not all games have this, but many do.




1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Boehland
United States
Apple Valley
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pfctsqr wrote:
Why does AP always have to be painted as the devil?


Because idle hands are the devil's playthings?
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David B
United States
Chesapeake
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheFlatline wrote:
pfctsqr wrote:
I am a bit surprised so many gamers are averse to thinking.


I want to play the game. Not watch someone else think about playing the game.

Also, how often does 20 minutes of studying the board reveal some unrealized, optimal move? Pretty much 99.999% of the time it doesn't. At best, you feel better about an earlier move you had decided on- probably within the first 90 seconds of thinking about it.

And I'm sorry, 15 minutes of waiting so that you feel comfortable about a move in a board game is ass. It's just a goddamn board game. I can't imagine how difficult it is to do something *really* important: like order a cup of coffee.



15 minutes is overdoing it, yes. Unless there is money on the table. But many seem to think anything over a couple of minutes is unacceptable.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Douglass
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like thinking about the strategy of games, but I hate when I'm playing a game, and people are taking so long that I lose interest in the game by the time it comes back around to me. If I'm thinking about the game the whole time, it's not a big deal. What happens sometimes though, is I'll analyze the board, decide on my move taking into account what the other players are doing, my strategy, and the game state, and then it takes so long to come back around to me that I've started thinking about something else. By this point I've completely forgotten what I was going to do, and my strategic thought process is disrupted. This can result in me making suboptimal moves, forgetting strategic considerations, and taking longer as I need to reanalyze the board. This doesn't happen too often, but when it takes half an hour to come back around to my turn, it can completely destroy the experience for me.

I agree with some of the other posters that people can get in a situation where they spend an inordinate amount of time looking for an alternative to the move they were thinking about anyway, and they often don't find it. If someone spends 10 minutes waffling about whether to attack me somewhere while I have my next several moves planned, I will tend to get annoyed at them.

Now, there are exceptions to this. If you are playing a game with the intention of people taking their turn whenever they get a chance, and resolving the game over a week or a month or whatever, AP is not an issue. People never getting around to taking their turns can be, but AP isn't.

Another aspect to this issue, is the question of how much benefit there is to this analysis. Even assuming you're learning something from doing this painstaking analysis, is it more worthwhile to make the best moves in this particular game, or to play the game an extra time or two, and learn from the experience of additional plays?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Douglass
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Depends on the game. Between experienced players, a few minutes in Race for the Galaxy significantly increases play time. I've played physical games of Race in 7 minutes. Now, sometimes it takes 10, or even 15, but someone taking several minutes to analyze the best move detracts from the play experience. If you're playing Through the Ages, a few minutes is perfectly reasonable.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Brosius
United States
Needham Heights
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
My favorite 18xx game for six players is two games of 1846 with three players each.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The problem arises when different players in the same game have widely different expectations about how much time people will put into thinking about each move. If both players expect their game of Lost Cities to take an hour, that's fine. If one player thinks it's going to take 15 minutes and it takes an hour, it might be a problem.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AP deserves the coat of paint it gets. In my experience and preference, it ruins many games for me. Board games are already slow enough and plodding enough as a fun event, as it is, but if you add in some schmuck who is SO desperate to make...just.....the.........right...............move....it gets super annoying.

I had a smart-arse friend with serious AP respond to complaints about his AP making the game take too long by stating that it would be quicker to not play the game. To which I responded by explaining that this wasn't the point. The point was that we WANTED to play the game but not if it was going to take years to complete.

Needless to say, I don't play games with him anymore. So his AP cost him fun gaming opportunities. YAY AP! shake
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Are you aware of the dangers foxes pose to you and
Sweden
flag msg tools
Help, I'm being held prisoner in an overtext typing facility! I don't have much time, they could find out at any m
badge
I'm that weirdo whose number of badges sold prior to yesterday Bail Organa is keeping track of
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
lordrahvin wrote:
When I show people my design, Conquest For The Stars, I tell them that the game is designed to give them a headache.


The name of the game has given me a headache already. Success!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Tak
United States
Chapin
South Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheFlatline wrote:

And I'm sorry, 15 minutes of waiting so that you feel comfortable about a move in a board game is ass. It's just a goddamn board game. I can't imagine how difficult it is to do something *really* important: like order a cup of coffee.


This, but I'm not sorry about it.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geoff Burkman
United States
Kettering
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Peekaboo!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pfctsqr wrote:
...I am a bit surprised so many gamers are averse to thinking.


I don't think they're so much averse to thinking as they are prone to over-thinking. Throw in a little ADHD, or a touch of OCD, and things can get hairy. Personally, I don't mind AP all that much, since I suffer from it occasionally myself, but what really gets my goat are the ones who have to vocalize their dilemmas. Just sit there and think, please, and then make your move! I don't want to hear your thought process, especially when you keep going over the same ground and/or keep forgetting simple rules and/or game states!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
The Herbie Nichols Project - Dr. Cyclops' Dream
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Because everybody is in a damned hurry nowadays, even when they're relaxing.
10 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Yaure
United States
Plymouth Meeting
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
MisterG wrote:
pfctsqr wrote:
...I am a bit surprised so many gamers are averse to thinking.


I don't think they're so much averse to thinking as they are prone to over-thinking. Throw in a little ADHD, or a touch of OCD, and things can get hairy. Personally, I don't mind AP all that much, since I suffer from it occasionally myself, but what really gets my goat are the ones who have to vocalize their dilemmas. Just sit there and think, please, and then make your move! I don't want to hear your thought process, especially when you keep going over the same ground and/or keep forgetting simple rules and/or game states!


I can see this being an issue in games which rely heavily on hidden information or are being played in a highly competitive environment (eg: a tournament final), but I have a hard time seeing 'vocalizing dilemmas' as categorically wrong or unpleasant. If gaming is an intellectual, social activity, then presumably social interaction about the game would serve as an essential aspect of the activity. Surely, there are ways to be inappropriate when discussing a particular game situation-- just like there are ways to be inappropriate in any type of social interaction-- but some of the most enjoyable game experiences I have had are those in which players share their insights about what is going on at a particular moment in a game. I often come away from such games with a greater appreciation for a certain type of strategy or mechanic that I had previously neglected (and hopefully on occasion it works in the other direction as well). Rushing through a friendly game without serious thought or interaction seems to undermine an essential part of playing the game in the first place. It's like reading a book as quickly as possible just to say you've completed it.
 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.