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Subject: Dominion vs 7 Wonders (I know, I know. They're not the same.) rss

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Matt Butterfield
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Jupiter
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I know, this has been asked/answered/debated ad nauseam, but I'm looking for a slighly different perspective. And I know, the games are different; they even have a different mechanic. But I'm looking at this from the perspective of complete non-gamers: the general idea is building your empire/dominion/city from an assortment of cards. And they're two very highly rates games.

Disclaimer: I have not played either game. I have watched a bunch of walkthrough/gameplay videos.

Given that, I think I lean a little more towards the gameplay of 7 Wonders. Just my initial impression. Dominion reminds me a bit too much of Magic: The Gathering, which I spent more hours than I can remember playing as a kid. Again, I recognize the differences, it's just the overall feel. Now, I loved all those hours playing Magic. But the "play this, which lets me play this and one of these, now I draw 2 more cards, etc" experience isn't really what I'm looking for, because it feels like a hard sell to anyone I would be playing with. Anyone I play games with now is a non-gamer. Getting anyone to try a new game feels like pulling teeth, although once they play, almost everyone has loved the games I've introduced (TTR, Lost Cities, Tobago, Carcassonne).

It seems that while 7 Wonders has the potential to be deep once you know the game well and know the tendencies associated with the different wonder boards, it doesn't have to be played that way. I feel like with the very casual crowd it would be played by with me, most people would choose a card to play based on what they see this turn and some general strategy for their game. And while this probably wouldn't win many games against people here, that's perfectly fine.

So, what are your thoughts?

Bonus Question:
How do the two games play with 2 people? I read both extremes about 7 Wonders; some people hate the dummy player, some find it very strategic. Dominion seems like it would play just as well with 2 as it would with more.
 
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Cyrus the Great
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Dominion is much better with 2 than 7 Wonders.

To me Dominion feels nothing like M:tG (I like both games). It does feel like "play this, which lets me play this and one of these, now I draw 2 more cards, etc." though.
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Jim Shaw
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I own both. Dominion is far better with two players, and three players, and in my opinion with 4. It falters at the 5 and 6 player range which I feel is where 7 wonders really shines. As far as complexity is concerned, Dominion is one of the best Gateway games I have ever taught and the only game a non gamer has sought out and purchased themselves, which they played with their families who then bought their own copy. I feel seven wonders is a bit more complex upfront to non gamers but in the end it should probably come down to player count.
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Moosey
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DOMINION
I love Dominion 2 player. I don't know if I like 2 more than 3. I know I like 2 more than 4, but not by much... they're all good. I am not enthused about trying it with 5-6, but I would if I was in the mood for a slow game.

7 WONDERS
Is great for quick games with large numbers of people.

FLOW
Both these games have good flow to it. In Dominion, if you aren't playing, you are probably shuffling. Turns flow faster in 7 Wonders only because you are all going at the same time.

LEARN
7 Wonders is more complex to learn initially, because you have to learn a heafty system of icons. Once you learn it, it's fast and easy. Dominion is easy to learn initially, but more complex for following games, because you have to learn what each of the 10 new Kingdom cards are now. So, would you rather have a little to explain every game, or a lot to explain your first game?

THINKY / HEAVY
I feel Dominion is more thinky / heavy. Strategies from game to game are more complex. You are probably watching your opponent more and holding cards away from then drafting more in 7 Wonders. But both games are medium. If you are looking for a super heavy or super light game, these are both wrong.

CONCLUSION
I don't know if either of these are right for your group. They may moan at having text to read on every card in Dominion. But then, I have a group of friends that likes the games you described, haven't played a huge variety of other games, and they do like Dominion. For 7 Wonders, it would be a good game IF you could convince them to learn it. But they are going to REALLY REALLY REALLY moan heavily at learning that one. I think that one is a bad idea because of how long it takes to learn. For any group other than the one you described I wouldn't be so critical about this. I think Dominion would be the better bet, but I wouldn't give either a resounding recommendation for your group. I think you personally however would love both. If I had to guess, I think you'd like Dominion a little more.

SUGGESTIONS
Try "The Resistance". I've gotten people that hate learning new games to love that one. It's quick and easy to explain also. If you are looking for a 2 player game that's real easy to teach, but still fun, check out Pebble Rebble. It's a free PnP game, where you only need a 6x6 board, a cup or bag, and some tokens or cubes or someth

EDIT: I agree with Jim. Number of players is a great way to decide which to get. Just take what I said as additional food for thought.
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2 threads askin' the same thing, so just view my single response here....

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/9850282#9850282
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Igor Knop
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No disassemble! Vídeos de Partidas Completas Passo a Passo
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I've have buyed the 7 wonders first and resisted months before trying Dominion.
Now I think that both are great games and should be in any collection.

Buy Dominion first: is more easier to non-gamers see and create a strategy during play and scale well from 2 to 4 players. Add more (5-6 with expansion/aditional base cards) and you get a huge increase in the downtime.

7 Wonders is a great two player game despite the critiscism. It get little chaotic with more and more players yet is very good party game at 7.
 
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Kevin Seachrist
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My biggest issue with 7 Wonders is trying to teach it. It's a very easy game to play once you've played it, but if the person hasn't had any experience with resource and tableau building, their first couple turns will be a bit disorienting to them, then they'll suddenly get it and there's no issue. If you have two or three players at the table who already have experience, the best way to teach it is to play a couple rounds from Age 1 to show how stuff accumulates and how you can play off your neighbors.

For Dominion, I go with the base recommended setup for the first game even if the newbies have experience in other card games--unless they've somehow played other deckbuilders but not Big D before.

Others have said it here best. If you really have to choose which game is better, the answer is based on the player count. Dominion rules with 2-4, and drags at a larger player count. 7 Wonders gets better and better as the player count increases (up to 7). The critical difference is that 7 Wonders has simultaneous card selection, so player count has almost nothing to do with game length, and no one is thumb-twiddling between turns.
 
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Matt Butterfield
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MooseyFate wrote:

I don't know if either of these are right for your group.


MooseyFate wrote:

I think you personally however would love both.


I agree on both counts. I have never had either on my wishlist because I don't really think they would fit, but I wanted to see what others thought. I am fairly certain I would enjoy playing both. Of course, this happens to me all the time. I'm always finding games that look great to me, but I know none of my friends would be into. (At least it prevents me from buying too many games.) I really just need to find a better way of converting people to board games in general other than, "we're going to play this, trust me, you'll like it, you just have to suck it up for 5-10 minutes while I explain the rules.". Ok, it's not that bad, but like I said, it almost always does turn out that way and I get people asking to play again.

MooseyFate wrote:

Try "The Resistance".


This will definitely be in my next round of game purchases. I've had that one on my list for a while.
 
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Vince Lupo
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From the hip without even reading your entire post or this thread:



Both are fantastic must buy games. Both are great from 2 to 6* (dominion needs an expansion to support more than 4). 7 Wonders always supports 7 players and now 8 with it's latest expansion. Dominion and 7 Wonders are great fun 2 player as well. My wife and I play our own version of the 2 player version where the dummy player plays a random choice.

ALso, both games have a great "build your own thing while interacting with other players in a mostly mild way". And depending on how you setup dominion, the attack cards can either be harsh or not so harsh/non-existant.
 
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Brian Cwikla

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mpb2000 wrote:

MooseyFate wrote:

Try "The Resistance".


This will definitely be in my next round of game purchases. I've had that one on my list for a while.


Also look at Saboteur (and Saboteur 2). Our group was heavily into Resistance but quickly latched on to Saboteur once it was introduced. Especially once Saboteur 2 with multiple roles was introduced to the group. You can play up to 12 people and it plays just as well with three or twelve.

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