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Subject: Block Numbers for the Russian expansion rss

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Eamon Honan
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The new expansion for Command & Colours Napoleonics is due out in December. However, if you're like me you've already started thinking about replacing the blocks in the set with miniatures. Fortunately, those fine fellows over at GMT have very kindly sent me a list of the block count in the upcoming supplement.

I've put together some suggestions with pictures on what 1/72 figures might be appropriate on my blog, which you'll find below.
[url]
http://joyandforgetfulness.blogspot.ie/2012/08/command-colou...[/url]

Line Inf 9 units 3 blocks each
Light Inf 6 units 3 blocks each
Grenadier 4 units 4 blocks each
Lt Gd Inf 2 units 4 blocks ea
Gd gren Inf 2 units 4 blocks each
Militia 2 units 4 blocks ea
Lt Cav 3 units 4 blocks ea
Hvy Cav 2 units 4 blocks ea
Cuirassier Hvy Cav 2 units 4 blocks ea
Lt Gd Cav 1 unit 4 blocks
Gd Hvy Cav 1 unit 6 blocks
Cossack Militia Cav 3 units 2 blocks ea
Foot Arty 4 units 3 blocks ea
Horse Arty 1 unit 3 blocks
Gd Foot Arty 1 unit 3 blocks
Leader 4 blocks
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Kent Reuber
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It's interesting to see that the Russians have some lower-than-typical strength units. No other nationality so far has 3 blocks for line infantry or 2 blocks for any cavalry unit:

Line Inf 9 units 3 blocks each
Cossack Militia Cav 3 units 2 blocks ea
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Bob Hansen
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Any idea what the block color will be? I am using Risk minis and painting them, if needed to the same colors as the blocks.
 
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Kevin Duke
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Indeed, there are some surprises here-- militia with 4 blocks is something of a surprise, and the Guard cav with SIX blocks? Hmm.

I'm betting the "nationality" rules for the Russians will have some new wrinkles as well... like, do you really think those 2 block Cossack units will be worth a full banner when lost?

As to block color, I wonder if GMT gets to pick really specific colors or chooses from a range of some sort. I have read that "Russian green" was extremely dark and looked almost black in some light. Seems we usually get a nice bright green, in counters or even on folks' miniatures.

But thanks for posting that list.
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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It's hard to say but it all sounds interesting. No typos in that list, I wonder? I wonder, too, if the Russians use the Guerilla Mechanic.

I was thinking the Russians would have more Artillery. But four units of Foot ain't bad.

A Guard Heavy Cavalry unit with 6 blocks? Not two units with 3 blocks? That sounds almost too weird to believe!
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Eamon Honan
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I've been routinely saying that Borg has gone made whenever a new ruleset becomes available.

He keeps proving me wrong though.
 
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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The man is obviously no "one trick pony"... I am always amazed at the rabbits he pulls out of his C&C hat.
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Talking to some friends at my FLGS yesterday, they noted that Russian battalions were smaller than comparable ones for the other major armies of the Napoleonic Wars. I should have guessed, recognizing that is the case in other games and in historical accounts in other wars.
 
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Dirk Wegner
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Line Infantry with just 3 blocks! I fear those chaps are to easily destroid. That the English and French Army were of equal strength was the reason the original game was such a blast, whereas the Spanish Expension was a letdown due to the weak Spaniards. I hope they make no mistake here! The Russian Infantry is allways been portrayed as solid an not given to flight. So the actual battalion size should not be overemphasized, especially when the size displayed in the big battles should be a division or at least some regiments per unit.
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Mark Bigney
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Perhaps the line infantry can ignore flags in some contexts others cannot? That alone might compensate for their smaller block count.
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Dirk Wegner
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More blocks mean more staying power! It is that simple. A unit with 3 blocks has to be withdrawn after loosing 2 blocks or your adversary can make easy banners. A unit with 4 blocks has still half it`s fighting ability in this case and is not a sure banner when attacked. That block numbers matter is proven by the british light inf., guarde grenadiers and french cavalarie too.
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Great Boo
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It would appear that Borg has bought into the grave, perpetuated historical inaccuracy that Cossacks are not as good as regulars and fought in small formations. This is indeed unfortunate to see.

The Russian battalion was typically only four companies (1810 onward)unlike most other nations. Their organization put them on par with the British and Prussians with regards to numbers and were some of the most rugged and stalwart of France's foes during this period.

Therefore,the Light and Line being three blocks each and the Cossacks being only two is far from accurate. They should be four each. Additionally, the Line Light and the Guard Light and Heavy Cavalry should all be five blocks each and the artillery 4 blocks each to better reflect their size as well.

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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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Interesting that judgement is being made on such little information.

We must remember that a single Tiger tank in M'44 is a force to be reckoned with...

We know nothing about the Russian units other than there are some with three blocks, some with four blocks and one with six.

We do not know how how they attack
We do not know how they move
We do not know how many swords or flags each can ignore

I rather leave the speculation to how profitable it will be to buy multiple copies of this expansion for when it goes out of print.
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Great Boo
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StevenE wrote:
Interesting that judgement is being made on such little information.

We must remember that a single Tiger tank in M'44 is a force to be reckoned with...

We know nothing about the Russian units other than there are some with three blocks, some with four blocks and one with six.

We do not know how how they attack
We do not know how they move
We do not know how many swords or flags each can ignore

I rather leave the speculation to how profitable it will be to buy multiple copies of this expansion for when it goes out of print.


Historically or in any board, miniature or computer a single Tiger tank is a force to be reckoned with... Though we do know what happens to units as they take hits in this game under the basic elements of play. Historically speaking, you don't tend find the Russians being more fragile than the Brits or Spanish.

If he does something innovative with Cossacks, it would indeed be a pleasant surprise since most rules writers (and "historical" writers for that matter) are ill-informed have relegated them to ignominy.

As for the number to buy... three. (Or forty-two! sauron)
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my eye
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I'm with StevenE on this one. Until I see individual unit capabilities, I'll hold off judgement. I suspect the 3-block infantry is to compliment/balance whatever their unique ability is.

As for cavalry, they're on a par with the French (at least in blocks per unit). And you may only see the 6-block Guard Heavy unit and the two-block militia cav units in one or two scenarios, and in a particular battle context--similar to the Polish Lancers from the Spanish expansion.

I have the utmost faith that the Russians won't get short-changed.
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Ivan Grozny
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georgedebleu wrote:
Historically or in any board, miniature or computer a single Tiger tank is a force to be reckoned with... Though we do know what happens to units as they take hits in this game under the basic elements of play. Historically speaking, you don't tend find the Russians being more fragile than the Brits or Spanish.


I must wholeheartedly agree with all three of these statements!
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Dr. J
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Great Boo* has some very valid and correct points, so I'll have to side with him on this. But, I too would like to see what their individual unit capabilities are and what - if any - unique abilities they have.

(*Great Boo's up/Booze-up?!)
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Guillaume Gleize
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MMMM ...

I think we all should wait for the full official rules.

I also read so many real letters from the French napoleonic soldiers ... how to say with respect ... They noticed during the first years a big lack of experience in the Russian line infantry and mostly in the Cossacks! I mean it's not a criticism: it's just numerous witness from letters of the guys of that time. The courage as nothing to do with that. We all know the historical courage of the Russian infantry. It's about experience and organisation. And it's about the start because it changed with the years. But I remember thoses letters of French light cavalrymen who wrote they used to "love fighting against the Cossacks because they try to cut us with the side of their sabers while we kill them with the end of ours!" etc ... Once again with respect.

And about the ones who compared thoses Russian units with other nations like Spain (but is it historicaly correct to do that?): Some napoleonic survivors used to say that in Russia they were scared by the weather but that in Spain they were scared by the weather AND by the Spaniards.

Spain is not famous as Napoleonic history but the veterans used to agree that Spain were their worst nightmare.

In fact Spain were their own "eastern front punishment"!

IMAO
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Great Boo
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As for the Cossacks... you mean the Cossacks that handed the vaunted Polish Uhlans and Light Cavalry defeat after defeat on their advance into Russia? The Cossacks that terrorized the French so much they'd march out in battalion square to forage? The same Cossacks that harassed and harried a squadron of veteran Chasseur and filled them with such fear that they marched back to camp in the protection of a Swiss square? You mean those Cossacks?

The same Cossacks that fought constantly against the Turk and Persians and perfected their style of warfare based upon their constant battles with these foes, whom the latter two feared? The Cossacks that Napoleon said were "the finest Light Cavalry" and with an "amry of them he could have conquered the world"! You mean these much feared, much maligned and misrepresented - by ally and foe alike - Cossacks?

Certainly you don't mean them, do you?


GGleize wrote:
MMMM ...

I think we all should wait for the full official rules.

I also read so many real letters from the French napoleonic soldiers ... how to say with respect ... They noticed during the first years a big lack of experience in the Russian line infantry and mostly in the Cossacks! I mean it's not a criticism: it's just numerous witness from letters of the guys of that time. The courage as nothing to do with that. We all know the historical courage of the Russian infantry. It's about experience and organisation. And it's about the start because it changed with the years. But I remember thoses letters of French light cavalrymen who wrote they used to "love fighting against the Cossacks because they try to cut us with the side of their sabers while we kill them with the end of ours!" etc ... Once again with respect.

And about the ones who compared thoses Russian units with other nations like Spain (but is it historicaly correct to do that?): Some napoleonic survivors used to say that in Russia they were scared by the weather but that in Spain they were scared by the weather AND by the Spaniards.

Spain is not famous as Napoleonic history but the veterans used to agree that Spain were their worst nightmare.

In fact Spain were their own "eastern front punishment"!

IMAO
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Dr. J
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Interesting remarks, to say the least. But Great Boo seems to have some idea of what he's talking about and knowledge of more obscure occurrences.

The most readily available references for English speaking fans of the period would be Osprey's title on the Napoleonic Cossacks, 'Cossacks 1799-1815' by Spring - and outstanding book overall. It is a surprisingly good read with only a few very minor errors. I'd also suggest Napoleon's Invasion of Russia by Nafziger. Though I would strongly discourage purchasing "Cossack Huzzah!" for it is rife with errors, inaccuracies, perpetuated falsehoods and ignorance. In my personal library of over 3,500 historical works, it is one of the most disappointing.

Also see:
Dr. Freiherr von Baumgartner - "Vollständiges Verzeichnis aller
Kosaken-Formationen 1812" and A.Prokesh – "Ueber den Kosaken, und dessen Brauchbarkeit im Felde".





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Ivan Grozny
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DrJ54 wrote:
Also see: Dr. Freiherr von Baumgartner - "Vollständiges Verzeichnis aller Kosaken-Formationen 1812" and Prokesh – "Ueber den Kosaken".


These are some of the quotes DrJ is refferring to I tihnk:

"The Cossacks also scored victories against regular cavalry.
In October 1813 near Kassel, "three Cossack regiments destroyed the Hussar Regiment ‘Jerôme' in such a way, that no man or horse managed to escape …" (- Prokesch)

"During Blücher's retreat from Meaux to Soissons in March 1814, Colonel Nostitz attacked with 40 Cossacks a whole squadron of Vélites of the Guard (Young Guard) on open terrain near the Bridge of Wailly. The Cossacks withstood the fire of the Vélites, and then threw themselves upon them, and the whole squadron was defeated." (Prokesh – "Ueber den Kosaken …")

In 1812 at Ostrovno, the French 16th Horse Chasseur Regiment was attacked by Cossacks. The Chasseurs delivered a volley at close range (30 paces) The Cossacks however closed with them and drove them back in disorder. Some Frenchmen fled into the ravine and some behind the squares of 53rd Line Infantry Regiment.

In early January 1814 Marshal Marmont sent d'Audenarde's dragoon brigade (from Doumerc's Cavalry Corps) toward Mannheim. The two dragoon regiments (500 men each) cut through the small detachment of 100 Cossacks and then threw back another detachment of 300 Allies cavalry. Audenarde continued east until he met Karpov's 2 000 Cossacks. The 1 000 dragoons had little time to deploy before Karpov's bearded warriors charged. The French lost 225 killed, wounded and prisoners, and fell back to Mutterstadt.

In 1813 at Hagelberg, Aleksandr Benkendorf galloped with Cossack regiments in front of the whole French position, from the far right to the far left wing. Musketry accompanied the Cossacks and they were received by grapeshot. Nevertheless, a Cossack regiment (300-400 men) defeated squadron of Cuirassiers (made of raw recruits) and some light infantry, in full view of the excellent French artillery. Then the Cossacks captured 2 cannons and several wagons which they took with them.

NB: It's nice to see a board where people are actually POLITE and can discuss things in a friendly manner without venom and spite. Kudos to everyone here!

Good discussion - thanks guys!
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Guillaume Gleize
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Once again: no offense. One of my best friend is fan of military history and has Cossack origins and we often speak about them.

It was just the witness of real letters from french soldiers ... Trying to help out here.

We all know the courage of those men whatever the nation. They prooved their valor. But maybe were on BOTH SIDE weaker units as described in some real historical witness.

I hope like you that the Russians won't be too weak and that the game will be balanced by a strong national rule!

GG
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Evil Bob
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I agree that it would be best to wait for the special rules concerning the Russian army before we pass judgement. The unit sizes tell us almost nothing by themselves.

For example, what if the Cossack units are 2 blocks each, but they can ignore square formations? Maybe if they retire and reform, they can automatically rally a block.

What if the regular inf are 3 blocks each but when in support they receive a bonus attack die?

Best to wait for the rules to be posted before we jump to conclusions.

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Jeff Kayati
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For Cossacks, it's also important to remember the differance between strength on a battefield and strength on a campaign. All light cavalry in this period is going to be much more useful on the campaign, which we don't play in C&C, than on the battlefield.

The smaller Russian infantry battalions are in line with what we see in most games, so zero surprise there. I also imagine we'll see rules for fighting in Russia and outside Russia.
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Guillaume Gleize
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Here is a picture of my friend with Cossack origins. He is a great fan of guns, a great horse rider and a fan of military history. Believe me: he defends the Cossacks much stronger than you all (lol)! But he also admit when Cossacks failed in their missions ...



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