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Subject: Chess Champion Garry Kasparov beaten and arrested rss

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Chris R.
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For those who haven't heard...

Former Chess Champion Garry Kasparov mb, perhaps the world's most famous board gamer, was beaten and arrested today.

-- punched in the genitals
-- tried to break his leg
-- thrown in a van and beaten by several police

"We've been saying Putin is a dictator for years who doesn't care about the law. Today, he proved it."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/17/chess-champ...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044437510457759...

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Damian
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What's even stranger is that he was being interviewed by journalists at the time. It couldn't have been more blatant.
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lotus dweller
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Putin is kicking goals today.

The division between the "creative class" and the "ordinary people" is being strengthened. Giving Putin and the elite better control of the "ordinary people".

Love your work Vlad.

edit: http://nplusonemag.com/pussy-riot-closing-statements
"I am amazed that truth really does triumph over deception. Despite the fact that we are physically here, we are freer than everyone sitting across from us on the side of the prosecution. We can say anything we want and we say everything we want. The prosecution can only say what they are permitted to by political censorship."

Of course the offspring of a KGB marriage (Vlad) isn't going to give much weight to high ideals. Time will show us whether the rest of Russia has lost their way too.

extracts of The Man Without a Face: The Unlikely Rise of Vladimir Putin
http://books.google.com/books?id=SBPy3pDlqHUC&printsec=front...
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Xander Fulton
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Pinook wrote:
Time will show us whether the rest of Russia has lost their way too.


"Lost their way"??

In what period in time, pray tell, were the Russian people a bastion of freedom and idealism, that they have since strayed from?

From as far back as I've read history that includes the Russians, this pattern of behavior is entirely consistent throughout. (And CERTAINLY since Peter the Great ascended to the Tsarist throne)
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lotus dweller
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XanderF wrote:
Pinook wrote:
Time will show us whether the rest of Russia has lost their way too.


"Lost their way"??

In what period in time, pray tell, were the Russian people a bastion of freedom and idealism, that they have since strayed from?

From as far back as I've read history that includes the Russians, this pattern of behavior is entirely consistent throughout. (And CERTAINLY since Peter the Great ascended to the Tsarist throne)
"the rest of Russia has lost their way too"

Selective reading of your post gives me, "the Russian people" "a bastion of freedom and idealism"

Do you want to defend this?
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Чебурашка, ты настоящий друг!
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XanderF wrote:
Pinook wrote:
Time will show us whether the rest of Russia has lost their way too.


"Lost their way"??

In what period in time, pray tell, were the Russian people a bastion of freedom and idealism, that they have since strayed from?

From as far back as I've read history that includes the Russians, this pattern of behavior is entirely consistent throughout. (And CERTAINLY since Peter the Great ascended to the Tsarist throne)


So, three young Russians are facing two years in a penal colony for exercising their right to protest in a way most westerners would never have the balls to even contemplate and you are making a blanket statement about "the Russians" having no concept of freedom?

The state is not the people.
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The Steak Fairy
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I guess if more easterners could do more than contemplate the timidity of the westerners, their states wouldn't be penalizing young people who protest in what some westerners consider the most ineffectual possible way.
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lotus dweller
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More than "less contemplation" seems required.
Unless we count the yoga of physical violence as "contemplation of western timidity". Which I find a difficult mental asana.
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The Steak Fairy
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Do those skinheads have a music video yet? Did Madonna endorse it?
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lotus dweller
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Closest I can find. But sans Madonna.
Intro by some Russian neo-nazi thug.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
damned coding Hey I've got a shirt like that piano player!
 
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MisterCranky wrote:
[...]young people who protest in what some westerners consider the most ineffectual possible way.


MisterCranky wrote:
Do those skinheads have a music video yet? Did Madonna endorse it?


Given that those involved knew perfectly well the possible sanctions they could face (and the number of times they have risked those sanctions), it is unlikely that this was a cynical ploy to increase record sales.

And that’s not to take into account the numerous statements by the group, nor the background: namely that the increasing curtailments on the ability to protest have forced those opposed to Putin to find inventive ways of expressing this opposition. Many of these include performances like those of Pussy Riot. Walking through the streets wearing a blue bucket on your head may seem like a bad student art project, but it has emerged as a form of protest for concrete reasons.

The effectiveness of this or any other protest can only be found out with time. Maybe it will drive Orthodox believers closer to the regime; alternatively, the repressions it has provoked may, by revealing the nature of the regime and the support given it by the Orthodox Church, inspire opposition or further protests.

However, my real point was that to characterise “the Russian people” as by their essence immune to freedom is to ignore hundreds of years of Russian protest and revolt in order to complacently ascribe oneself a moral superiority simply on the basis of having had the good luck of being born in a country and at a time when such freedoms are taken for granted.
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The Steak Fairy
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Yes, that's great, and to generalize about the contemplations of "most westerners" is beneath you, boorish, and sad.
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MisterCranky wrote:
Yes, that's great, and to generalize about the contemplations of "most westerners" is beneath you, boorish, and sad.


I am touched that your opinion of me is so high that you think that anything could be beneath me. I hope your assessment of my boorishness takes into account the facts that:

(a) I included myself in the phrase "most westerners";

(b) My generalisation is based on the observation that few people—wherever they are from—are willing to risk imprisonment, punitive fines, loss of job or university place etc. in order to protest in favour of abstract rights unless they face some sort of existential threat. Westerners seem to me to be no different here; as it was apparently a westerner making the claim that Russians are inferior in this regard, I felt it appropriate to point that out.

Unless XanderF is actually a Russian, in which case I apologise.
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Boaty McBoatface
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The bear that walks like a man.
 
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Quote:
In what period in time, pray tell, were the Russian people a bastion of freedom and idealism, that they have since strayed from?


You can't fault Russia historically on idealism. From the serf uprising until the fall of communism; many Russians believed in a utopian dream of total equality that the mainstream Western World completely ignored.
(I'm not saying this was ever realised or that the state's policies helped.)

The Russian people have been failed by both Communism and Capitalism. Civil Society remains a challenge but unlike my generation; they will not inherit freedom but claim it firsthand for themselves and if that is not idealistic then what is.
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The Steak Fairy
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Salo sila wrote:


(b) My generalisation is based on the observation that few people—wherever they are from—are willing to risk imprisonment


Claiming to base a specific generalization on an overall generalization is even further beneath you than the last bit. If you want to say something about "people--wherever they are from" then you're obviously including Russians. Pussy Riot's enactment of "Occupy Cathedral" may go down in history as one of the bravest statements of all time, but while we wait to see how that plays out, I'm sure we can elevate the discussion from the level of tit-for-tat generalization.
 
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MisterCranky wrote:
If you want to say something about "people--wherever they are from" then you're obviously including Russians.


I was.

MisterCranky wrote:
I'm sure we can elevate the discussion from the level of tit-for-tat generalization.


Yes, let's do that.

Do you have anything elevating to say?
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The Steak Fairy
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Sure, I'll just borrow from my pal Schopenhauer: "Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right."
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MisterCranky wrote:
Sure, I'll just borrow from my pal Schopenhauer: "Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right."


"Quoting great men is a sign that one has nothing interesting to say ". Cawston Henriques.
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"Quote students of Ukrainian history with care--what wasn't interesting the first time won't be any more interesting the next." Cawston Henriques
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Xander Fulton
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Salo sila wrote:
XanderF wrote:
Pinook wrote:
Time will show us whether the rest of Russia has lost their way too.


"Lost their way"??

In what period in time, pray tell, were the Russian people a bastion of freedom and idealism, that they have since strayed from?

From as far back as I've read history that includes the Russians, this pattern of behavior is entirely consistent throughout. (And CERTAINLY since Peter the Great ascended to the Tsarist throne)


So, three young Russians are facing two years in a penal colony for exercising their right to protest in a way most westerners would never have the balls to even contemplate and you are making a blanket statement about "the Russians" having no concept of freedom?

The state is not the people.


Having read through the thread, I'm having difficulty parsing what, exactly, you are talking about here (that seems to have started the argument and gathered so many thumbs).

Since when do the fringe actions of a small group of individuals describe historic norms? So one band protested, so what? That doesn't change the fact that the history of Russia is one of widespread acceptance of totalitarian rule - often under the guise of the Orthodox church, so having a religious angle, sure, but totalitarian all the same. Even in Pugachev's Rebellion (I assume that's the "serf uprising" mentioned elsewhere in the thread), the Cossacks agitating the serfs to overthrow the local lords only saw any success in gathering followers in the distant provinces. And that is as good a support of my position as any - given the mind-boggling inhumanity the nobles treated the peasants with (effectively no rights, no representation, seizure of their land AND increasing taxes, epidemics and natural disasters of the late 18th century), that most of the peasants still stuck with the noble class in opposing any questioning of the state just...I mean...wow.

No, I really can't see where any kind of 'tradition of freedom' exists in Russian history such that only some of the current Russian leadership and population have 'lost their way' in this ruling.
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MisterCranky wrote:
"Quote students of Ukrainian history with care--what wasn't interesting the first time won't be any more interesting the next." Cawston Henriques


“We bowled well and then finished them off quickly and I just hope we have not used up all our good form too early.”

Moises Henriques
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XanderF wrote:
...

No, I really can't see where any kind of 'tradition of freedom' exists in Russian history such that only some of the current Russian leadership and population have 'lost their way' in this ruling.
Ah - you're looking for a "tradition of freedom" whereas I'm looking for people moving towards it. I think there has been people moving towards freedom in Russia for some time.

"Time will show us whether the rest of Russia has lost their way too." Here I am implying that Putin has lost his way in terms of moving towards freedom and asking whether we'll see this as a general trend in Russia or whether "the urge towards freedom" will again have significant influence in how their society is created. (Again?: glosnost, peristroka, the dismantling of state co-ops and the growth of freeer enterprise, the break-up of the USSR, deomocrater elections)

Its been often overshadowed by practicalities such as eating food, not being shot and not being sent to the Gulags. Though none of these has destroyed the movement.

I'll argue (with only some confidence and some evidence) that some of Bolsheviks (and later "the workers") saw communism as the way towards freedom - that they saw themselves in terms of communist ideals and were working towards freedom in those terms - freedom from capitalist ideals, perhaps freedom from oppressive gender and racial stereotypes, freedom from the opium of religion, freedom from the alienation that capitalism creates. My and your opinion on this view of freedom matters little if it was freedom that motivated them.

There is also the matter of the dissidents - people who have pushed back against state oppression.

Currently there seem to be more and more within the Orthodox Church who are coming to support Pussy Riot.

I suggest also that Putin et al wouldn't have organised this little court scenario if there was no significant opposition to his rule. Pussy Riot is not the only protest group in Russia by a long shot.
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Xander Fulton
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Pinook wrote:
XanderF wrote:
...

No, I really can't see where any kind of 'tradition of freedom' exists in Russian history such that only some of the current Russian leadership and population have 'lost their way' in this ruling.
Ah - you're looking for a "tradition of freedom" whereas I'm looking for people moving towards it. I think there has been people moving towards freedom in Russia for some time.


I guess the difference is that I don't see the occasional agitator as a 'trend'. There has ALWAYS been agitators against ANY established order. Heck, you could argue that the biblical stories have Cain - one of the few few humans ever in these tales - in that role.

Small groups rebelling against the establishment may be of interest every now and then, but are by and large irrelevant and not indicative of a trend.

Will there be a trend, here, of support of Pussy Riot in 'freedom of speech' against the current administration? I guess it's possible, but...I'm not holding my breath...

Pinook wrote:
Its been often overshadowed by practicalities such as eating food, not being shot and not being sent to the Gulags. Though none of these has destroyed the movement.


You'll note that I did not condemn the Russian tradition I was noting, above. Certainly, the climate the Russian people live in is - by and large - 'harsh' compared to, say, the US or Western Europe. There just isn't a lot of wealth in that land...and what little is there (the newly discovered oil reserves in the Siberian regions) is concentrated and easily controlled.

A knee-jerk pull towards tradition and order is totally understandable in such a situation, and historically has dictated general behavior of Russia, its people, and its government (in all its various forms - for the past two or three hundred years, anyway).
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I see a trend from the Czar through Lennin (a regression with Stalin) to Kruschev to Gorbachev and Yelstin through glosnost, peristroka, the dismantling of state co-ops and the growth of freer enterprise, the break-up of the USSR, democraticer elections.

But like all trends its in the eye of the person determining where measurement starts and stops and what is to be measured.
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