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Subject: 3 Player Configuration rss

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Zack S.
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Is there a reason the scenario book's 3-player configuration keeps the Ottomans and Holy Roman Empire as activated major powers rather than making a 2v2v2 split like Here I Stand? I can't help looking at the setup, with one player controlling England, the Protestants, AND the Ottomans against the individual French and Spanish, and thinking it looks really unbalanced compared to an even split.

Was the even split tested and discarded for some reason? Are there particular problems that come up when pairing Spain and the HRE or France and the Ottomans?
 
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Kristian Thy
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Gunulfr ok Øgotr ok Aslakr ok Rolfr resþu sten þænsi æftir Ful, felaga sin, ær warþ ... døþr, þa kunungar barþusk.
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zackss wrote:
Are there particular problems that come up when pairing Spain and the HRE ...


Try to guess the Emperor's secret religious preference.
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Zack S.
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turbothy wrote:
zackss wrote:
Are there particular problems that come up when pairing Spain and the HRE ...


Try to guess the Emperor's secret religious preference.

That's a good point, the Spain/HRE pair seemed to be the riskiest. What if HRE was just forced "balanced"? You've got a similar situation with the English/Protestant, just the preference isn't secret.
 
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Zack S.
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Actually even a pro-Catholic position should be balanced. The HRE could choose Catholic and declare it first turn in a normal game and it's not like Spain wouldn't convert the Netherlands and England.
 
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Remo Galvan
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zackss wrote:
Is there a reason the scenario book's 3-player configuration keeps the Ottomans and Holy Roman Empire as activated major powers rather than making a 2v2v2 split like Here I Stand?


Interesting question, I own Virgin Queen but not Here I Stand so I can't make a comparison ...

I'm currently playing a 3 player game, I see how different is to play with 1 power instead of 3 (2 + the major activated power).

Ed could help us to understand the reason of this asymmetric setup and maybe, in a (near I hope) future he can come up with a symmetric one with, if needed, some special rules (like Holy Roman Empire religious preference) ...
 
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Michael Kiefte
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turbothy wrote:
zackss wrote:
Are there particular problems that come up when pairing Spain and the HRE ...


Try to guess the Emperor's secret religious preference.


Draw it randomly.
 
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Ed Beach
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rgalvan wrote:

Ed could help us to understand the reason of this asymmetric setup and maybe, in a (near I hope) future he can come up with a symmetric one with, if needed, some special rules (like Holy Roman Empire religious preference) ...


Besides secret religious preference, another reason behind going this way is Deactivate Powers on the Diplomatic Influence Table. Conflicts of interest develop there if you have one player controlling 2 powers that are both activate and deactivate powers for the same minor. A France/Ottoman pairing does that in Venice for instance.

And I guess the other main reason is to create a speedier 3-player version. VQ plays fine with just 4 players focusing in more on western Europe (with the HRE and Ottoman as part-time participants). That version can also play very quickly. So setting up the 3-player version this way keeps the efficiency of this 4-player configuration (though admittedly the imbalance does mean the Spanish and French players need to be willing to cooperate quite often).

Finally, France and the Ottoman were no longer close allies during this period (unlike during HIS). So that pairing would be a bit artificial for my tastes.
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Remo Galvan
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Ed, thanks for the reply, I'm new with the game so I can be totally wrong but ...

Ed Beach wrote:
Besides secret religious preference, another reason behind going this way is Deactivate Powers on the Diplomatic Influence Table. Conflicts of interest develop there if you have one player controlling 2 powers that are both activate and deactivate powers for the same minor. A France/Ottoman pairing does that in Venice for instance.


In some way this problem is already present, for minor and activated major power.

In our game, the England / Protestant player still controls Ottomans.
There was diplomatic status check for HRE due to German Intervention, so this player had to check for activating (with England / Protestant) and deactivating (with Ottoman).

The same could happen if, for example, HRE is a major ally of England and there is a diplomatic status check of Ireland (the same if Ottomans is allied with France and there is a check of Venice).

Maybe it is not so frequent as in a game with each player controlling 2 powers, I don't know ...

Ed Beach wrote:
And I guess the other main reason is to create a speedier 3-player version. VQ plays fine with just 4 players focusing in more on western Europe (with the HRE and Ottoman as part-time participants). That version can also play very quickly. So setting up the 3-player version this way keeps the efficiency of this 4-player configuration (though admittedly the imbalance does mean the Spanish and French players need to be willing to cooperate quite often).


I would like to have another way to play with 3 players , not to substitute the current one ... so the 3 players can choose the one they prefer (the faster or the slower).

Ed Beach wrote:
Finally, France and the Ottoman were no longer close allies during this period (unlike during HIS). So that pairing would be a bit artificial for my tastes.


Historic consideration apart and considering only the gameplay, do you have suggestions about which are the 3 "best" pairs ?
 
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Ed Beach
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rgalvan wrote:
Historic consideration apart and considering only the gameplay, do you have suggestions about which are the 3 "best" pairs ?


If you were doing a 3-player games with pairs of powers, it would clearly be:

Ottoman/France
Spain/Holy Roman
England/Protestant

You could try it as is -- ignoring the concerns above (secret religious preference, diplomatic influence) -- I don't think any of those are complete show stoppers. Would be interesting to see if Spain/HRE player is confident enough to pick a Catholic religious preference or if he is more cautious and goes Balanced.

Also remember the winner is the player who gets EITHER of his powers to 25 VP (or an auto win). So you can sacrifice the score of one power to get the other to victory. It pretty much has to play that way because of the auto win conditions built into the game design. If you try and require that BOTH powers must do well, things break down if one player has one of his powers to an auto win but the other is far behind. If you don't give him a win in that case then you run into problems (such as what are the VP and Card numbers if someone is on the Auto Win space of their Power Card?)
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Remo Galvan
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Ed Beach wrote:
If you try and require that BOTH powers must do well, things break down if one player has one of his powers to an auto win but the other is far behind. If you don't give him a win in that case then you run into problems (such as what are the VP and Card numbers if someone is on the Auto Win space of their Power Card?)


I think it's ok to give the victory to the player that reaches any victory condition with only one of his / her power.

To give the victory to the player that do well with both powers, a simple way could be to add the VP of his / her powers when any victory condition is reached.

If a power reaches any Automatic Victory condition award 25 (or a little bit more) VP points to this power.

The winner is the player with the most VP

It's simple, but maybe it's not good ... sometimes you must play in a different way ...

Suggestions ?
 
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Christoph Yasutake
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My only real concern is if the HRE and Spain are controlled by the same player, then they can double gank the Ottoman with not much that can be done by his other hand, France.

On that note, the same could be said of France - if the HRE and Spain double declare war, it could be all over that way as well.
 
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