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Subject: Does this count as a game? rss

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sean johnson
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We recently got this game for our son:


It is a single player experience for children, where the challenge book shows a picture of one of the three trucks and several blocks. The child then has to figure out how to get the blocks all in the truck in an organized way.

This is not in the BGG database. The box clearly promotes it as a game and even says "Multi-level logic game." However, it does kind of straddle the line between puzzle and game. I do not want to go through the time to add it to the database and stuff if it will just get rejected. So does something like this count as a game or not?
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He's the keeper of the database meeple
 
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Benjamin Pachner
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Most single player logic games don't get their own entry. However, there is no consistent ruling on what gets approved and what doesn't. There are several entries for items that do not contain a single rule yet somehow got approved as games.
 
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Werner Bär
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SeanXor wrote:
It is a single player experience for children, where the challenge book shows a picture of one of the three trucks and several blocks. The child then has to figure out how to get the blocks all in the truck in an organized way.

According to the Game submission guide, this is considered a puzzle, not a game.

"What is not a game?
Puzzles - BGG has a prohibition against solo solvable puzzles, such as Rush Hour or Rubik's Cube. A puzzle is an item such that a problem is presented for which a programmed solution is available."
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Scott A. Reed
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cuazzel wrote:
Most single player logic games don't get their own entry. However, there is no consistent ruling on what gets approved and what doesn't. There are several entries for items that do not contain a single rule yet somehow got approved as games.


This is news to me; What are these non-rule items that are being approved? "Expansions" without rules or changes to game-play are declined with instructions that the item is a Miscellaneous Game Accessory.

As for the item in question, Werner has it correct. The rules for BGG entries are that an game is a competitive or cooperative activity in which one or more players win or one or more players lose. Solo activities require rules but also must include some sort of random information, timer, or failure element to qualify as a game. A mere puzzle that exists in the state of solved or unsolved is not a game by the BGG definitions.
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Benjamin Pachner
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skelebone wrote:
This is news to me; What are these non-rule items that are being approved?


Off the top of my head I can think of some books like BattleTech: Die Welt des 31. Jahrhunderts and Im Zeichen des Sechsecks: Klaus Teuber & Die Siedler von Catan, for example. I own both and I am pretty sure that there is nothing in those books that qualifies as game content (but I can check again). I'm also pretty sure that I did point that out for a bunch of items years ago (via the correction tool) but never saw one of them being removed. But I never followed up on that because I'd rather have a complete database of all game items anyway :)
 
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Werbaer wrote:
SeanXor wrote:
It is a single player experience for children, where the challenge book shows a picture of one of the three trucks and several blocks. The child then has to figure out how to get the blocks all in the truck in an organized way.

According to the Game submission guide, this is considered a puzzle, not a game.

"What is not a game?
Puzzles - BGG has a prohibition against solo solvable puzzles, such as Rush Hour or Rubik's Cube. A puzzle is an item such that a problem is presented for which a programmed solution is available."

Since it seems the question is answered (otherwise I wouldn't go off-topic), I'll add as a side note, Sean, that Rush Hour, in fact, would be an excellent puzzle activity for your son once he has mastered this title. Don't bother with Rush Hour Jr.; he can jump into the real thing.
 
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Scott A. Reed
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cuazzel wrote:
skelebone wrote:
This is news to me; What are these non-rule items that are being approved?


Off the top of my head I can think of some books like BattleTech: Die Welt des 31. Jahrhunderts and Im Zeichen des Sechsecks: Klaus Teuber & Die Siedler von Catan, for example. I own both and I am pretty sure that there is nothing in those books that qualifies as game content (but I can check again).


Ah, then you must have missed the user shit-fit upset from a couple of years back when I tried to remove non-game book content and book rules compilations. The order of the day is that books remain until the development of BookGeek or something like the same and they will be ported over then. New books that are mere compilations or books about games are not being added, and there is a consistent ruling on what gets approved and what doesn't.
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Benjamin Pachner
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skelebone wrote:
Ah, then you must have missed the user shit-fit upset from a couple of years back when I tried to remove non-game book content and book rules compilations.


Indeed, I was not aware of that. This state of neither removing existing illegitimate items nor adding those missing would haunt me every night ;)

I will see if I can find the list I had back then and check on the non-book items. At the moment I only remember the Starfarers of Catan figures, those are gone by now.

 
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RE: Trucky3

A "puzzle" is really a single-player game.

There are a zillion puzzles. We can hope for PuzzleGeek someday.
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ah HA! 'moi' hereby DECREED that "it" WERE 'indeed' some: "fauxgame"; and 'get' the "fauxgame" OUT OF HERE! robot
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skelebone wrote:
Ah, then you must have missed the user shit-fit upset from a couple of years back when I tried to remove non-game book content and book rules compilations. The order of the day is that books remain until the development of BookGeek or something like the same and they will be ported over then. New books that are mere compilations or books about games are not being added, and there is a consistent ruling on what gets approved and what doesn't.


I've been wondering about those items myself lately. So wrong items did get approved but are not taken out while similar items now do not get approved. I'm fine with the policy but calling this "a consistent ruling" seems at least questionable to me.
 
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merrox wrote:
I've been wondering about those items myself lately. So wrong items did get approved but are not taken out while similar items now do not get approved. I'm fine with the policy but calling this "a consistent ruling" seems at least questionable to me.


I suppose "consistent" as in "from this point in time on we only approve items that..."
 
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marble911 wrote:
merrox wrote:
I've been wondering about those items myself lately. So wrong items did get approved but are not taken out while similar items now do not get approved. I'm fine with the policy but calling this "a consistent ruling" seems at least questionable to me.


I suppose "consistent" as in "from this point in time on we only approve items that..."


'Consistent" as in the policy is set for items going forward, and an executive decision dictates the anomalous content will not be removed.
 
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Robert Wesley
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Re: Does this count as a game? does *Solitaire*?
Do you kiss your Moms with that 'anomalous' of your'ns? shake
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ptdnet wrote:
Werbaer wrote:
"What is not a game?
Puzzles - BGG has a prohibition against solo solvable puzzles, such as Rush Hour or Rubik's Cube. A puzzle is an item such that a problem is presented for which a programmed solution is available."


But according to that description, Shadows over Camelot is not a game. Neither are Dominion nor Axis and Allies.



Those are not meant to be played solo.
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Werner Bär
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ptdnet wrote:
Werbaer wrote:
"What is not a game?
Puzzles - BGG has a prohibition against solo solvable puzzles, such as Rush Hour or Rubik's Cube. A puzzle is an item such that a problem is presented for which a programmed solution is available."

But according to that description, Shadows over Camelot is not a game. Neither are Dominion nor Axis and Allies.

1. I'm not aware that any of these games is solo solvable.

2. Assume Dominion is set up. The available cards are "Apprentice, Caravan, Duchess, Embargo, Haven, Laboratory, Militia, Mining Village, Scheme, and Stables". I'm player 1 (out of 3). My hand is 2 estates and 3 copper. Please post the programmed solution how i will win the game ("solve the puzzle").
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Galaad Maal
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Werbaer wrote:

2. Assume Dominion is set up. The available cards are "Apprentice, Caravan, Duchess, Embargo, Haven, Laboratory, Militia, Mining Village, Scheme, and Stables". I'm player 1 (out of 3). My hand is 2 estates and 3 copper. Please post the programmed solution how i will win the game ("solve the puzzle").


foreach(buy[]) {
if ($money>=3) {
if ($money>=8) {
buy($Province);
}
if ($money>=6) {
buy($Gold);
}
if ($money>=5) {
buy($Duchy);
}
if ($money>=3) {
buy($Silver);
}
} else {
buy($Copper);
}
}
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Robert Wesley
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Werbaer wrote:

1. I'm not aware that any of these games is solo solvable.

2. Assume Dominion is set up. The available cards are "Apprentice, Caravan, Duchess, Embargo, Haven, Laboratory, Militia, Mining Village, Scheme, and Stables". I'm player 1 (out of 3). My hand is 2 estates and 3 copper. Please post the programmed solution how i will win the game ("solve the puzzle").
Does this PLAY "Like" either RISK or Monopoly? whistle
 
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Benjamin Pachner
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Here is another item that is neither a book nor an expansion but simply a pack of glass pieces: Ys
 
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David

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marble911 wrote:
merrox wrote:
I've been wondering about those items myself lately. So wrong items did get approved but are not taken out while similar items now do not get approved. I'm fine with the policy but calling this "a consistent ruling" seems at least questionable to me.


I suppose "consistent" as in "from this point in time on we only approve items that..."


The line must be drawn here! This far and no farther...I will make those [wrong items] pay for what they've done to me!
 
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puzzle is solo-solvable with a programmed solution.

Therefore, what makes something a solo game instead of a solo puzzle is the "random element". This is why FF Books are games, not puzzles. And so is solitaire Agricola. Consequently, you can win or lose.

And why my jigsaws, or Rush Hour are simply puzzles. They have a fixed solution. They are solvable. These puzzles you either "win" or "give up". Big clear Difference.

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Ben Finkel
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Gmaal wrote:
} else {
buy($Copper);
}
}


Pppffffff that's hilarious.
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I always record my plays of those kind of games under Outside the Scope of BGG
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Gmaal wrote:
Werbaer wrote:

2. Assume Dominion is set up. The available cards are "Apprentice, Caravan, Duchess, Embargo, Haven, Laboratory, Militia, Mining Village, Scheme, and Stables". I'm player 1 (out of 3). My hand is 2 estates and 3 copper. Please post the programmed solution how i will win the game ("solve the puzzle").


foreach(buy[]) {
if ($money>=3) {
if ($money>=8) {
buy($Province);
}
if ($money>=6) {
buy($Gold);
}
if ($money>=5) {
buy($Duchy);
}
if ($money>=3) {
buy($Silver);
}
} else {
buy($Copper);
}
}


Yeah...definitely not...
 
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