Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Commands & Colors: Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Unit with a leader eliminated by retreat rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
killy9999
Scotland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Today we had a situation like this: medium cavalery unit with attached leader was attacked in CC with 3 dice. The result was 1 hit (leader survived casualty check) and 2 flags. One flag is ignored, second one forced the leader to retreat. However the unit was able to retreat only one hex, which eliminated remaining two blocks leaving the leader alone. The question is what happens now? Is the leader forced to stand alone on the hex? Or is he allowed or forced to evade?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Franka
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
1) Leader elimination is only checked one time per combat dice roll (Pg 18 of Living Rules, Section 14: Leaders/Attached Leaders/Note).
Quote:
NOTE: Only one leader casualty check is made during any combat sequence.

Therefore, you do not roll for Leader elimination when the cav unit initially loses a block. You run the effects of all the dice against the cav unit. Once all of those have been resolved, THEN you check for leader elimination.
As mentioned below, you actually check for Leader casualty after removing blocks that had hits rolled against them. When the retreat would cause additional units to be eliminated, you do not reroll for Leader elimination a second time.

2) The cavalry loses a unit, executes its retreat, and loses blocks for being unable to complete the retreat. In your example, the unit to which the leader is attached has been eliminated. Therefore under Section 14: Leaders/Leader's Unit Eliminated in the rules, you roll one die and eliminate the leader if a leader symbol comes up (and grant your opponent a second victory banner after the first one for the eliminated cav unit).
Quote:
Leader’s Unit Eliminated: When a leader is attached to a unit and the unit is eliminated, leaving the leader alone in the hex, the leader casualty check is made with only 1 die. To hit the leader, you need to roll one leader symbol.


3) If a leader symbol does not come up, you must execute a Leader Evade (Section 14: Leaders/Leader's Unit Eliminated, end of first paragraph)
Quote:
If the leader is not hit on this single die roll, the leader must Evade 1, 2, or 3 hexes back toward his own side of the battlefield (see Special Actions Leader Evade).


4) Looking at page 16, Section 13: Special Actions/Leader Evade, 7th bullet in the bulleted list in this part of the rules:
Quote:
• You may choose to Evade your leader off your side of the battlefield. This saves the leader from becoming a Victory Banner for your opponent but you lose a strong command piece by doing so.

Therefore, since you must Evade at least one hex, you lose the leader but your opponent does not gain a victory banner for it.


The rest of this no longer applies. The leader occupies the hex that his unit was last in but has no additional rolls made against it unless the attacking unit takes a Momentum Advance and attacks again.

EDIT: Ugh, spelling
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
killy9999
Scotland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks!

Regarding point 4 of your answer - the unit was not able to evade because of other units blocking its way, which means I could simply evade to one of these units and attach to it. I'm not fully convinced about your interpretation of bullet 7 on page 16, because bullet 8 states:

Quote:
If the leader cannot Evade a minimum of one hex (due to Impassable terrain) the leader is eliminated and the opponent gains one Victory Banner.


Does edge of the board count as impassible terrain?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duke
United States
Georgetown
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The edge of the board is not considered impassable terrain.
The leader simply evades off the map and as stated, your opponent does not receive a victory banner for it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Franka
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Ah, sorry, I thought the retreat was blocked by the edge of the board. If it is blocked by other units, then it depends whether the units are friendly or enemy.

If your Evade path takes you through a friendly unit (with or without a different Leader attached to it), you can evade through it without a problem. You can also evade into it and stop as long as the unit does not already have a Leader attached to it.

If you are forced to move through an enemy hex as part of the Evade (remember, you can't stop on an enemy hex as part of the Evade, but you can move through it on your way to a legal ending hex), you have to roll for Leader Escape (top of page 17 of the rules). This means that the enemy unit gets to roll all of its Close Combat dice and eliminates the leader on any one Leader symbol. If not, the Leader keeps moving to the next hex. If your only path of Evade would carry you through THREE enemy units (or some combination of enemy units with impassable terrain behind them), you would automatically eliminate the Leader and give your opponent the banner since the Leader could never reach a legal ending hex, defined as:
Quote:
A leader may not end his Evade movement in a hex that contains another friendly leader, impassable terrain, an enemy unit or enemy leader.



The edge of the board is not impassable terrain (it's not actually terrain at all) in the rule you mention above. If it was, then you could never evade your leader off your edge of the battlefield, as it would always be impassable terrain and your leader would always be eliminated and give your opponent a banner. But this isn't the case. You can always evade your leader off your edge of the board if you are doing a Leader Evade and you can move enough hexes to reach the edge of the board and still have at least one hex of Evade movement left over.

Impassable terrain is defined as Seacoast, Rivers (unless specified otherwise by that scenario's rules), and Fortified City Walls.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leo S.
Chile
Valdivia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bigtex01 wrote:
Quote:
NOTE: Only one leader casualty check is made during any combat sequence.
Therefore, you do not roll for Leader elimination when the cav unit initially loses a block. You run the effects of all the dice against the cav unit. Once all of those have been resolved, THEN you check for leader elimination.
I would say it is the reverse.
You make a casualty check initially when the unit loses a block. After retreating is that the casualty check is not done again.

After the mentioned Note on page 18, rules say:
Quote:
EXAMPLE: when a unit with an attached leader loses blocks in Close Combat, a leader casualty check is made after the blocks are removed. If the unit also retreats because of flags on the same combat dice roll and the unit loses more blocks due to all retreat paths being occupied, another leader casualty check is not required. The flag losses are from the same combat dice roll and only one leadership casualty check is made on a leader during a combat sequence.

7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Franka
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
alerce wrote:
I would say it is the reverse.
You make a casualty check initially when the unit loses a block. After retreating is that the casualty check is not done again.

After the mentioned Note on page 18, rules say:
Quote:
EXAMPLE: when a unit with an attached leader loses blocks in Close Combat, a leader casualty check is made after the blocks are removed. If the unit also retreats because of flags on the same combat dice roll and the unit loses more blocks due to all retreat paths being occupied, another leader casualty check is not required. The flag losses are from the same combat dice roll and only one leadership casualty check is made on a leader during a combat sequence.


Yep, this looks right. I agree with you. Thanks for the correction.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Duke
United States
Wynne
Arkansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
+1 on Leo.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
my eye
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kduke wrote:
+1 on Leo.

+2 on Leo.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
killy9999
Scotland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
alerce wrote:
You make a casualty check initially when the unit loses a block. After retreating is that the casualty check is not done again.
But the leader has to evade in such situation, right?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Rewoldt
United States
Loveland
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
killy9999 wrote:
alerce wrote:
You make a casualty check initially when the unit loses a block. After retreating is that the casualty check is not done again.
But the leader has to evade in such situation, right?


Anytime the unit to which a leader is attached is removed from the board, regardless of whether or not a leader check occurs, yes, it must evade.

EDIT: maybe I was too quick with that - these situations don't arise very often (always evade with a mounted unit when clear paths are not available - the dice gods will allow a double BAN roll everytime )

EDIT II: I'll listen to arguments and references against, but it is pretty clear in the rules (and the way I've been playing it for more than five years...) that anytime a leader's unit is eliminated (and any leader check is survived) it must evade.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Franka
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Ok, I'll give this one a shot and see if I can redeem myself after my earlier rules misinterpretation.

Under Rules number 11, Close Combat, it lists a "Close Combat Procedure." It lists 8 sub-items that occur in a specific order.

4. Attacker rolls battle dice
5. Attacker applies hits
6. Apply retreats

On page 13, there is a heading under number 5 that states "Effect of Close Combat Hits on Units." Under that is a header called "Hits on Leaders." After this is the beginning of number 6, Apply Retreats.

So, from this, the "Hits on Leaders" occurs in the fifth item in the sequence, "Attacker applies hits" because the sixth item, "Apply retreats," comes after "Hits on Leaders."

In the example given in this thread, a cavalry unit has taken hits but not enough to eliminate it prior to the retreat. Per the correction by Leo above, the Leader casualty check occurs when the blocks are removed from the unit for hits and prior to any retreat.

Furthermore, you do not perform a Leader casualty check twice in a combat sequence. Therefore, by the time the unit starts to Apply Retreats, the attached leader has already made its combat check for the combat sequence. So when the unit retreats and is eliminated because it cannot complete the retreat, the leader will be left alone in the hex that its unit last occupied. However, the elimination itself does not trigger an evade. It could trigger a Leader casualty check if one had not already been made, but in this example, it has already been made, so there is no second leader casualty check. And without a second casualty check, there is no trigger for an evade once the unit is finally eliminated.

I'm basing this on the part of the rules on page 18, under 14. Leaders, subheading "Leader's Unit Eliminated:"

Quote:
When a leader is attached to a unit and the unit is eliminated, leaving the leader alone in the hex, the leader casualty check is made with only 1 die. To hit the leader, you need to roll one leader symbol. If the leader is not hit on this single die roll, the leader must Evade 1, 2, or 3 hexes back toward his own side of the battlefield.


But in this case, you're not rolling a leader casualty check because you've rolled it earlier in the combat sequence. It doesn't say anything about unit elimination triggering an evade independent of a leader casualty check (or when you don't make a casualty check because you've already made one).

So my interpretation is, Leader stays in the last hex the unit retreated to before being eliminated with no evade after the elimination. It just stays there as a lone leader because nothing triggers it to do anything else. That's the way I read the rules, at least. I'm open to other interpretations if you think the rules support them.
1 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
killy9999
Scotland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, that's the interpretation I initially followed. And I thought this will be a simple question...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If the Leader finds himself alone in a hex after combat, he must conduct a Leader evade. In the OP's scenario, the Leader left alone on his own base row after the unit he was attached to was eliminated to due to a retreat (and surviving a previous Leader Casualty Check) will have to make a Leader Evade move off the board. No banner for the enemy because the Leader exited the board through an Evade move.

Quote:
p.17 Leader Evade...When a leader is attached to a unit and the unit loses its last block by Ranged Combat or Close Combat, make a leader casualty check on the leader by rolling one die. To score a hit on the leader, you need to roll one leader symbol. If the leader is not eliminated, the leader must evade. If this occurs in Close Combat, the attacking unit may take a Momentum Advance because it eliminated the defending unit.


Also, there was a big discussion about this covering a similar situation (and others) back in 2008 on the C&C:Ancients folder over on consimworld. Richard Borg finally fielded the question and offered a series of answers in post #4614 covering a range of situations.

I think Richard's Case #7 from that post applies to the OP's situation:

Quote:
7. When a unit with an attached leader is attacked and the unit loses blocks from the combat dice rolled, after the combat loss blocks are removed, there is a leader casualty check (2 dice). If the leader is not eliminated, the leader may not evade and must remain with the unit. Now if the unit is also forced to retreat but cannot complete its entire retreat movement and is eliminated, after the retreat loss blocks are removed, the leader must evade. Note retreat movement that was not completed by the unit that was eliminated has no effect on the leader. Another leader casualty check is not required because only one leader casualty check is made during any combat sequence and the loss of blocks from combat and the retreat, are due to the same dice roll combat sequence.

Other details to remember…

A leader on his baseline hex that must evade is removed from the battlefield. Your opponent does not gain a Victory Banner when a leader evades from the battlefield.

A leader's evade will turn into an escape, when the leader's evade path is occupied by enemy units or leaders.

Richard Borg




8 
 Thumb up
1.08
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.