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Subject: Family member dies during Market Day action rss

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Richard Hirschman
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For all actions except the Market Day action, when a family member passes away when you move your marker past the bridge on the time track, you finish the chosen action that led to the marker being moved across the bridge and then decide which family member dies. The exception is the Market Day action, in which case you decide which family member dies immediately when the marker is moved across the bridge (before the chosen action is taken).

1) What are the practical implications of the difference between choosing a family member to die immediately when you move your marker across the bridge (Market Day) and choosing a family member to die at the end of your chosen action (all actions except Market Day)?

2) Is it the case that with the Market Day action, if paying for the action causes you to have to move your marker across the time track bridge, and you immediately have to choose which family member dies, that the chosen Market Day action is then not completed? If so, I don't know why anyone would choose to do this.

3) In the instructions it states that for the death of a family member associated with all actions except Market Day, you choose which family member dies "at the end of your turn." Does "end of your turn" mean immediately at the end of the chosen action that led to the death of the family member by paying time for that chosen action? To put it another way, is the "end of your turn" the same as the end of your current action?
Thanks.
Richard
 
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John Weber
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Richard

Since you are never placing or moving any Family Members during the Market Day, it's a distinction without a difference. You still get to sell the indicated goods or grain (depending on what customer you are serving) regardless of which family member is retired from the game.

I can think of one situation where it might make a difference from a game strategy standpoint, in that other players who could serve customers might glean information from knowing which family member is retired. Example: Player A has to retire a worker during the Market Day, and has a choice of someone in the Church or in the Wagon Maker craft building. Player B, who has a Wagon and goes after Player A, is interested because he has a choice of Traveling or Selling the Wagon. If Player A retires the Wagon Maker, then Player B may be willing to wait on the Travel action and perhaps even sell the Wagon if the competing Wagonmaker is removed, knowing there might be sufficient time to produce a second Wagon.

It could also make a difference if all the spots in a certain location in the Chronicle are being filled, and there is more than one player in a position to serve a customer during the Market Day that is in a position to trigger a worker retirement that could go to that location. In that case, obviously, the order of moves could be very important.

But, most of the time, it really doesn't matter all that much. I think you are probably reading something into the rules that isn't there.
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Richard Hirschman
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John,
Thanks for your helpful reply.

I assumed there must be some significance to the difference in the timing of death because on page 10 of the rules "immediately" (death during Market Day action) and "end of turn" (death during all other actions) are in bold.
Richard
 
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S P
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I figured it was so you can put your meeple in the chronicle first in case one of your opponents have a meeple die when they follow the action
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Lutz
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I just think they are calling out the difference. Since normally when you are taking your action a family members dies at the end of your turn. So, you can still "use" the family member that dies.

Also, the game end could be triggered during market day which changes a small bit how the final round works:

Quote:
If the end of the game is triggered during a market day, finish the market day completely. Afterward, determine who has triggered the end of the game by occupying the last chronicle space or grave. If it is the same player who also triggered the market day, then he has taken his last turn and everyone else has one action left.
If it was triggered by a different player, then all players, in clockwise player or- der, may carry out one more action. (The final turn of the game is then taken by the player who triggered the market day.)
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Tim Seitz
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Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
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People take turns performing market day actions. After each person's turn, someone may die, at which point it's possible to trigger the endgame, which is why they have rules accounting for this occurrence of the game ending during a market day.
 
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Ben Ehlers
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sthrjo wrote:
The rule is very significant: Since more than one player may have a family member passing away during an entire market day, there must be a rule to clarify the order of the individual deaths. This is taken care of by the exception to the normal rule.
Example: 2 players, both are located one position before the bridge. The first player takes a black cube and starts a market day, immediately putting a F.M. in the chronicle. The second player then takes his market day mini-turn, and pays 1 green and 1 time, and put his F.M. in the chronicle, if there is still room.


I'm just reading through the rules and have not played a game yet, but...

In your example, when the first player takes the black cube to trigger the market day resulting in a bridge transit, that passing is the result of taking an action for his turn, right? My interpretation would be that this FM would then be laid to rest at the end of the turn, ie upon resolution of the market day.

I would think that if player two then paid the green cube and two time to serve a customer--thus triggering the death of one of his family members--then player two's FM would be laid to rest before player one's.

It seems to me that the full Market Day is nested inside the larger context of taking a cube to execute an action.

that rules book thingamajigger wrote:
You first get to finish carrying out chosen action in full and must only decide which of your oldest family members dies at the end of your turn. Exception: anyone who moves his marker past the bridge during a market day must immediately choose which of his family members die.


 
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John Weber
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St Vincent wrote:
sthrjo wrote:
The rule is very significant: Since more than one player may have a family member passing away during an entire market day, there must be a rule to clarify the order of the individual deaths. This is taken care of by the exception to the normal rule.
Example: 2 players, both are located one position before the bridge. The first player takes a black cube and starts a market day, immediately putting a F.M. in the chronicle. The second player then takes his market day mini-turn, and pays 1 green and 1 time, and put his F.M. in the chronicle, if there is still room.


I'm just reading through the rules and have not played a game yet, but...

In your example, when the first player takes the black cube to trigger the market day resulting in a bridge transit, that passing is the result of taking an action for his turn, right? My interpretation would be that this FM would then be laid to rest at the end of the turn, ie upon resolution of the market day.

I would think that if player two then paid the green cube and two time to serve a customer--thus triggering the death of one of his family members--then player two's FM would be laid to rest before player one's.

It seems to me that the full Market Day is nested inside the larger context of taking a cube to execute an action.

that rules book thingamajigger wrote:
You first get to finish carrying out chosen action in full and must only decide which of your oldest family members dies at the end of your turn. Exception: anyone who moves his marker past the bridge during a market day must immediately choose which of his family members die.




First of all, you should probably play the game first, to see how the situation described would play out.

In my copy of the English rules (I have the EggertSpiele, not the TMG edition), it is the act of taking a cube (p. 4) that triggers the action, so the taking of the black cube would trigger the Market Day (as described on p. 7) and, as has previously been quoted, the exception (p. 10) states "Anyone who moves his marker past the bridge during a market day must immediately [emphasis in original] choose which of his family members dies."

So, in my view, it's fairly clear that it's a case of first come, first serve, whether the family member "retirement" was triggered by taking a black cube or through turning in a green cube and aging one hourglass: Step 1, take the black cube on the Market Day space; Step 2, Market Day action is triggered; Step 3, retire the worker if the bridge is crossed, then Step 4, serve a customer (if desired), then the Market Day continues with the next player in turn.

Since the Market Day is the one action where multiple players can participate, the exception to the general rule of waiting until the action is completed makes sense, particularly since no family members are actually assigned to the Market Day space as is the case with other spaces on the board.
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Ben Ehlers
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No, that totally makes sense to me, and seems in spirit with the way the chronicle plays out. I just know from too many bouts with rules lawyers that my interpretation is just plausible enough merit discussion.

If taking the cube triggers the action, then that action would necessarily need to resolve before player one retired their meeple.

The original rule is written as it is to allow people to squeeze out an additional action from a soon-to-be-deceased meeple.

In my heart of hearts, I know you are right, otherwise it disadvantages players taking the initiative, but hey--it is also a plague cube we are talking about. Plague isn't supposed to be good.

Perhaps if the market day rule was worded to indicate that "if a bridge transit occurs in any round in which a market day is initiated, all player deaths are resolved immediately" there would be less ambiguity?

 
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Gillum the Stoor
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The turn of a player who triggers a Market Day action is special, because it is the only kind of turn during which another player may pay time (and thus have a family member pass away).

I agree that it seems reasonable that, on such turns, family members (of the various players) should pass away in the order of that their deaths are triggered. That would mean that a family member that passes away as a result of the current player taking a plague cube should be the first to die.

BUT ...

One can argue that the rules imply differently.

The market exception to the death-timing rule says that "Anyone who moves his marker past the bridge during a market day must immediately choose which of his family members dies." (Emphasis added - original emphasis removed.) Otherwise, the normal rule applies: "your oldest family members dies at the end of your turn." (Original emphasis.)

The key question is, what does "during a market day" mean? The interpretation above (deaths occur in order triggered) is based on the entire turn being the market day.

The section of the rules on the Market action say that "This action triggers a market day in which all players can participate."

The rules thus distinguish the Market action from the market day itself. In particular, the taking of a (plague) cube triggers the market day. If that cube taking triggers the market day, then it doesn't make sense for the cube taking also to be part of the market day.

If that is right, any death triggered by the taking of a plague cube from the Market area would not take place until the turn ends, after the market day is complete.

I don't claim that this is the best way to play or that it was the designers' intent - just that it follows from the rules.

If the designers intended otherwise, they could revise the market exception to the death-timing rule to read as follows: "Anyone who moves his marker past the bridge during the turn of a market day (including due to taking a plague cube from the market area) must immediately choose which of his family members dies."
 
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gillum wrote:

The key question is, what does "during a market day" mean?


I would say it means, during a market day. Not really any need to read anything into that. The market day lasts from when the cube is pulled, until all players pass.

So, if the active play pulls a plague cube, and that causes him to cross the time bridge, he immediately kills a family member. After all, it is his turn... so his deaths should get journal preference... the fact that he chose market day action shouldn't penalize him.

BOb
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pilotbob wrote:
The market day lasts from when the cube is pulled, until all players pass.

So, if the active play pulls a plague cube, and that causes him to cross the time bridge, he immediately kills a family member. After all, it is his turn... so his deaths should get journal preference... the fact that he chose market day action shouldn't penalize him.
In some cases, killing a family member immediately benefits the player - and in others getting to wait till the end of the turn is better.

Suppose there is one space open in the village chronicle for Travel and one space open among the anonymous graves. Assume that no one has a family member traveling.

If the player must immediately kill a family member when he takes the plague cube, then he won't get an extra action after the market day and everyone else will (because it was he who triggered the game's end). If he can wait till the end of the turn, then another player who wants to participate in the market day may find that it is she who triggers the game's end, then the player who chose the Market action gets one more action - the final one.

A nice thing about Village is that sometimes time passing is good, and sometimes it's bad. Sometimes having a family member die is good, and sometime it's bad. It's very situational.

Thus, it's better not to make rulings on the rules based what is better or worse for a particular player.
 
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I don't still don't see any other way to interpret it.

The rules say:

When you take a plague cube immediately return it to the bag and spend 2 time.

During market day, when you cross the time bridge immediately kill a family member.

--

So, if taking the plague cube for market day is going to cause that to be your last turn, don't do it. Do something else... either someone else will take market day or you can your next turn.


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Gillum the Stoor
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pilotbob wrote:
I don't still don't see any other way to interpret it.

The rules say:

When you take a plague cube immediately return it to the bag and spend 2 time.

During market day, when you cross the time bridge immediately kill a family member.

What the rules don't say is whether taking the plague cube is part of the market day.

Suppose that the death-timing exception had said "Anyone who moves his marker past the bridge during a Market action [I changed "market day" to "Market action"] must immediately choose which of his family members dies."

Then it would be very clear that a death due to the taking of the plague cube would not occur immediately. The rules are very clear that the act of taking a cube is distinct from performing an action. A non-well turn must begin by taking a cube; after that, you may perform an action. Taking a cube and performing an action are two different things.

But the death-timing exception refers to a market day, not a Market action. The rules make it sound like the market day is part of a Market action - that would make the cube taking something that happens earlier in the turn.

I'm not saying that the game should be played that way. I'm just describing how one can interpret the rules in that way.
 
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Joe Kong
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pilotbob wrote:
I don't still don't see any other way to interpret it.

The rules say:

When you take a plague cube immediately return it to the bag and spend 2 time.

During market day, when you cross the time bridge immediately kill a family member.

--

So, if taking the plague cube for market day is going to cause that to be your last turn, don't do it. Do something else... either someone else will take market day or you can your next turn.




Let the supreme court decides if others raise an objection.

Meanwhile I shall play your way and enjoy the game!!

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Seth Jaffee
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pilotbob wrote:
I don't still don't see any other way to interpret it.

The rules say:

When you take a plague cube immediately return it to the bag and spend 2 time.

During market day, when you cross the time bridge immediately kill a family member.

--

So, if taking the plague cube for market day is going to cause that to be your last turn, don't do it. Do something else... either someone else will take market day or you can your next turn.



I'm pretty sure taking the cube has to fully resolve (you'd pay the 2 time for the black cube" BEFORE the Market Day begins. Aren't you allowed to take a cube and NOT do the action? Or do the rules make an exception for Market Day (I don't have them in front of me)?
 
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sedjtroll wrote:
pilotbob wrote:
I don't still don't see any other way to interpret it.

The rules say:

When you take a plague cube immediately return it to the bag and spend 2 time.

During market day, when you cross the time bridge immediately kill a family member.

--

So, if taking the plague cube for market day is going to cause that to be your last turn, don't do it. Do something else... either someone else will take market day or you can your next turn.



I'm pretty sure taking the cube has to fully resolve (you'd pay the 2 time for the black cube" BEFORE the Market Day begins. Aren't you allowed to take a cube and NOT do the action? Or do the rules make an exception for Market Day (I don't have them in front of me)?


The market day itself must happen. But, you are not required to sell something... you can pass.

BOb
 
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sedjtroll wrote:
I'm pretty sure taking the cube has to fully resolve (you'd pay the 2 time for the black cube" BEFORE the Market Day begins. Aren't you allowed to take a cube and NOT do the action? Or do the rules make an exception for Market Day (I don't have them in front of me)?

Right.

You do two things on your turn: (1) take a cube (or play three matching ones); and (2) take an action.

#1 is mandatory on every turn.

#2 is optional - unless you took a cube from the Market area.

If the cube you took in #1 is black, you must pay the 2 time then - before #2 (i.e., before any action).

If you took a cube from the Market area, you must do a Market action in step #2. Performing a Market action triggers the market day. Everyone may participate (in turn order) in the market day, but no one has to.

If paying time caused your marker to pass the bridge, one of your family members dies. Normally, this is at the end of your turn. But if the bridge passing occurs during a market day, the death occurs immediately.

At question here is whether the taking of a black cube in step #1 is considered part of the market day triggered by step #2.
 
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Pascal D
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I was arguing this one with my wife also. But I think we have a clear answer here :

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/844050/black-cubes-and-spen...

You take a black cube, pay time and your family member dies at the end of your turn. After market.
 
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