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Subject: Trade and Colony Ships really anytime? rss

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Ferdinand Köther
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Sorry, folks, if these questions have been asked before (probably), but the answers are hard to find, because there are so many rules questions.

Basically the rules are not so bad, imho, but not so good either

After our first game tonight - 4 players, all really liked it - two questions remain, which anybody who knows it for sure may answer simply with Yes or No please.

1. Trade resources anytime - is it really anytime, like when I do Research and have not sufficient Science points, I can trade Money or Materials? This is mentioned in the upkeep phase only, so I wonder if you can trade like that only during that phase?

Similar (really bad rules structure)

2. Can you use your colony ships really at "anytime during your turn"?
The rules imply that you can use them during Explore and Influence actions, and at the beginning of the Upkeep phase, which makes sense in a way. Or can I use them (if available) also during a Research action, for example?

Thanks for your help,
Ferdi
 
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David F
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Anytime
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Jonathan Ramundi
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Neither of these examples prove that the rules are written poorly--you and your friends simply doubted them.

Yes, you can trade resources anytime, and you can use your colony ships anytime on your turn (and before the Upkeep Phase).
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Jim Richardson

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Actually, the rules do still need clarification in several places. For colony ships they are at least misleading, if not incomplete. I know the designers don't like "rules-lawyering" but there still needs to be precision about things if you are playing a competitive game.

AFAIK you can make a resource exchange at any time. Just obey the X:1 trade rate for your race, and it must be all of the same resource for 1 (like Hydran doing 3 material for 1 money, not 2 material + 1 sci for 1 money.)

You can use colony ships:
- During the action phase: any time during your turn regardless of whether it is an action, reaction, or pass
- At the beginning of upkeep phase (* although in this case you may not recolonize planets where population was killed in the preceding combat phase)

These are the colonization and trade rules as I understand them after 30-some games. If I still don't have them down precisely, please let me know.
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Fernando Robert Yu
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for the colony ships I guess this means UNUSED colony ships....

and the only way to unflip 2 used ones to become unused is via the influence action correct? This means you NEED to pick the influence action so that you can reuse ships, and that multiple influence actions therefore is the only way you can really move a lot of the population cubes in 1 turn...

I'm asking since I don't have Eclipse yet, but I'm getting my copy this coming weekend....I've read the rules, but of course nothing beats actual gameplay!

 
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Carl Bussema
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Influence is the only way to refresh them during the round anyway. Remember they all flip up between rounds.
 
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neko flying
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I think that the rules of the game are reasonably well written. Most of the FAQ are from people that haven't read the whole rulebook (not your case) or people who are not particularly happy with a well-explained rule and would rather that there were an error in the rulebook:
- when the rulebook says "anytime," what does it mean?
- anytime
- really anytime?
- yes, really
- I don't think that is clear enough. Let's ask on the 'geek


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Herb
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ParticleMan wrote:
- At the beginning of upkeep phase (* although in this case you may not recolonize planets where population was killed in the preceding combat phase)


Thanks for pointing that out, I think we may have forgotten about that detail.
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Simon Kamber
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merrox wrote:
ParticleMan wrote:
- At the beginning of upkeep phase (* although in this case you may not recolonize planets where population was killed in the preceding combat phase)


Thanks for pointing that out, I think we may have forgotten about that detail.

You may not have known. It is a later correction to the rulebook because someone noticed that if you could recolonize after combat, you could gain resources twice for the same planet (once for the cube in the graveyard, and once for the new population.
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Ferdinand Köther
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Thank you, everybody, for all your answers and contributions !

And weeeelllll, not wanting to start a rules structure discussion here, in a really well structured rule I'd expect general rules in general chapters, and not as side lines in two resp. three subchapters, while they are valid for all chapters (and then as such should be side lines in all chapters) - alas, they're general rules after all!
Having written many hundreds of rules so far I know a little bit about rules and their structure ...

That's why I asked, also knowing that maybe as often as not "anytime" is not "anytime". Never trust a rule that you haven't mucked up yourself

Best wishes to everybody, definitely anytime ,
Ferdi
PS. As I said before, these rules aren't that bad after all, the more I'm surprised about this abundance of rules questions as hardly experienced before.
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Peter O
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As you said in many other games anytime doesn't really mean anytime. Magic TCG has such convoluted rules particularly when it comes to timing that it trains players to expect timing rules and minor (and major) rules holes to be present that the rules lawyers can get an advantage. I applaud the Eclipse designers for making the rules as free from timing restrictions as possible. They could easily have said you can't unflip between influencing systems during the influence actions. Instead you can do it at the most opportune times possible to get the most bang for you buck and there is no worry about "is that legal under timing." it's good to see colony flipping present during upkeep as well for those who forget. It makes the " I forgot to colonize, do you guys mind if I go back" much less common. Of course someone could still try the next turn, but that's pretty egregious at that point.

It's funny that when we get to a game with better designed rules such that rules lawyers aren't advantaged, that people still complain because the other games have more fiddly rules and this game doesn't take into account OTHER games fiddly rules.
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neko flying
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I see your point; however, fiddly rules are in the very nature of collectible card games, which are based on the "each card breaks a rule" mechanism essentially. A collectible card game without fiddly rules would probably mindlessly boring
 
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Ferdinand Köther
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That's why I don't play CCG's, or at least one of the reasons.

cool Ferdi
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Peter O
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flying_neko wrote:
I see your point; however, fiddly rules are in the very nature of collectible card games, which are based on the "each card breaks a rule" mechanism essentially. A collectible card game without fiddly rules would probably mindlessly boring :D


It's just poor design. Games don't need fiddly rules to have rich and deep strategy. Chess and Diplomacy are two that stand the test of time. I would sooner attribute Magic's success to marketing by means of "just one more pack to complete the set" than smart game design.
 
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Jim Richardson

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tranenturm wrote:
I would sooner attribute Magic's success to marketing by means of "just one more pack to complete the set" than smart game design.


Going on 20 years and still one of the biggest CCGs. How many have come and gone... they all sold packs to complete sets...
 
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neko flying
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tranenturm wrote:
It's just poor design. Games don't need fiddly rules to have rich and deep strategy. Chess and Diplomacy are two that stand the test of time. I would sooner attribute Magic's success to marketing by means of "just one more pack to complete the set" than smart game design.


I agree, but I was saying something else: CCG have almost invariably fiddly rules. It's unavoidable.
 
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Daniel Skaufel
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Was gonna post a new thread but since the topic of this one is similar to what I wanted to ask I'll post it here instead.

ParticleMan wrote:

AFAIK you can make a resource exchange at any time. Just obey the X:1 trade rate for your race, and it must be all of the same resource for 1 (like Hydran doing 3 material for 1 money, not 2 material + 1 sci for 1 money.)


Since I can trade at any time, I interprate it as that I could trade 6 material for 3 money (as a human), or any other amount, as long as I obey the ratio for my race. Am I correct?
 
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Mikko Saari
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Yes.
 
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