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Subject: Quick DOA 2 impressions and changes from DOA 1 rss

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Jim Brooks
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I just got back from Gencon where I had the chance to get in a DOA 2 demo. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I'll try to cover the major differences that I noticed between DOA 2 and DOA 1. Hopeully some of the other people who played the demo will correct any mistakes I make or fill-in any gaps.

DOA 1 has been my favorite game since it came out. I am happy to say that DOA 2 seems more like DOA 1 "enhanced", rather than a "sequel", which is a good thing in my book. It will be an instant purchase for me. I wish I could have handed Brett the money right there in the exhibit hall.

Will DOA 2 change anyone's mind who played DOA 1 and didn't like it? I'm guessing the answer is "no", but I will say that there are some changes, most notably the move from dice to "challenge cards" to resolve combat, that made the game pretty easy to teach/lean. Another experienced player and I payed against three new players, and they didn't seem to have any trouble picking the game up. In fact, they were kicking our tails for the first 3/4 of the game.

I'll also post a few crappy pictures... this first one is fairly early in the game, 3 platters, 9 characters per side. Note: these are not the final components, so don't draw too many conclusions on component quality from the pictures.



First impression...yep...pretty much looks like DOA1. Again, a good thing for me. About the only thing you notice straight-away is the larger character cards.

Speaking of character cards....





Sorry it's sideways, but you can see some differences from DOA 1 by looking at the character cards. First, there's new stats, and they all have a rating from zero to nine. That first stat under melee is "Wits". It's main function is to determine who strikes first in melee. Thats right! No longer is melee simultaneous. You can kill a character before they get a chance to strike. The icons at the top of he card gave bonuses to guardian challenges if the corresponding symbol was also on the guardian card.

Honor and Respect are back, but now Respect governs how quickly the characters enter the game. No longer are you limited to bringing in two characters per turn. Now, you get to bring in all of your characters that have an equal to or higher Respect stat than your opponents best characters. This, I believe, could lead to a quicker ramp-up of the action.

In my demo game, our opponents seemed to be using the "good guys" (higher Respect), so they were able to bring characters out a little faster. Consequently, they were able to jump out to an early lead as evidenced by the Colonial labyrinth in this pic.....



You'll notice in the picture (unless it's too blurry) that there are now three "paths" in each layrinth. Each path leads to a potential bonus for all characters on your team of the same age as the labyrinth if you can advance your marker to the end.

Once we were able to catch-up in the character race, the fights began. As I mentioned, the default rules for DOA2 use "challenge cards" instead of dice for combat.

A sample challenge card....



All you have to do in melee is compare your character's Melee stat to your opponent's React. You compare the numbers (0-9) to get the difference. Then you just look up the result of the melee hit on the challenge card. You repeat the procedure if you hit, using the Power of your character/weapon vs. your opponent's Armor.

I never had a problem with the DOA 1 system, but I have to say that this stat number and card-based system certainly seemed to streamline the game. Apparently, there's an optional rule to use D10s instead of challenge cards, but we didn't do this in the demo. I'd have to try it both ways to see what I like better, but I certainly didn't mind the cards. The new folks picked things up very quickly this way.

Our opponents also focused on the new Lith's Lair key. During set-up, they placed it in a space that was much more convenient for them to access.



Our opponents focused on the Colonial Labyrinth, while we were able to get ahead on the Future, Modern, and Ancient labyrinths. On one of the last turns of the game, one of my characters, General James Gavin, set himself up a few spaces away from the entrance to the Future Labyrinh with a machine gun (unbeknownst to our opponents). My partner used Elliot Ness as a blocker on the entrance to the Future laybrinth. Our opponents decided to dog-pile on Elliot Ness, and General Gavin opened-up with the machine gun (an area-effect weapon) with devestating results. I think Gavin managed to kill 3 out of 4 of our opponents characters while completely missing Elliot Ness. Which brings-up another change. Apparently, when you kill a character, you have an option to Imprison them instead. Amittedly, I didn't catch the scoring implications of this, but apparently this was better than killing the characters as there was no time left for our opponents to attempt a jail break.

Which brings me to one of the last changes to DOA2. There seems to be more (or maybe just different) scoring opportunities. At the end of the game Brett was tallying the killed, imprisioned, and wounded characters. Somehow, this translated to points, but I didn't chatch the exact formula. In any event, the killing spree that General Gavin went on during the last couple turns made a difference in the scoring at the end of the game as we had more of our opponent's characters in prison than our opponents had of our's. We also owned he Ancient, Modern, and Future Labyrinths while our opponents owned the Colonial and Lith. My partner managed to destroy one of the gates in our opponents base which gave us another point.

In all, a very good game of DOA2. I can't wait until November (or later?) to pick-up a copy of the base game an Master expansion. That's right...just one game and one expansion will give us more characters than all 9 expansions for DOA 1.

A list of some of the differences between DOA 1 & 2:
* 3 types of "treasures": common (weapon heavy), secret (other heavy), and elite (powerful). You can choose either common or secret for 1 point, elite for two.
* Callenge cards replace dice for combat (option to use d10s)
* Attack in order of Wits (can kill a character before they get a chance to melee)
* Adventure keys have three paths with bonuses at the end for same-age characters
* Can destroy team base gates (counts for points)
* Characters enter game based upon Respect (not just two per turn)
* Characters can gain experience markers which are a one-turn stat boost.
* There's the option to place "encounters" on the map. These are placed during set-up and similar to guardian challenges. (we didn't use them in the demo).
* Characters have new stats that can affect bonuses for guardian challenges
* There seemed to be more ways to score points based upon character condition (dead, imprisoned, wounded), but I missed the explanation, so I can't fully explain it.
* Characters have more stats than before, and they are rated 0-9
* There was a "tribute" that you can pick-up at your base and deliver to the Lith's Lair to gain a point at the end of the game. (One of the tributes was bacon)
* There were ways to gain "achievements" which converted to victory points. (I believe this was from a "secret" treasure card. Our opponents gained one victory point for imprisoning 3 of our characters.
* Trading happens as a free action (not during movement)
* Tunnels have been removed from the game.

Again, thanks to Brett for runing the DOA2 demo. I had a great time and can't wait to pick up the entire set when it gets printed, hopefully by the end of the year.









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Dennis Gadgaard
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Thank you for posting this. I'm very much looking forward to playing some DoA2
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to fill in with his thoughts

So should one ignore Earth Reborn, Mage Knight, Mage wars and Rune wars and just wait for this instead? ..
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Jim Brooks
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aliquis wrote:

So should one ignore Earth Reborn, Mage Knight, Mage wars and Rune wars and just wait for this instead? ..


I suppose that depends upon your gaming budget. DOA is my favorite game, but I own and rate highly all of those games you mentioned.
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Tim Fiscus
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I pretty much just passed out cold.
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HuckmanT wrote:
I pretty much just passed out cold.


Why, Tim? You don't like the idea of no dice?

I was wary at first, but it did seem to work well and did speed-up the game. I'll probably try it with dice just to compare, but the game still felt like DOA to me - with some enhancements to make things easier for new folks, some changes to speed-up the game and ramp-up the action.

The DOA2 demo I played ran three hours, but there was a good amount of rules discussion due to there being three new players. Even so, I can say that the amount of action we got in was more than we would have in DOA 1 under the same conditions. For me, a DOA 1 game often takes a while to "heat-up". My impression was that DOA 2 more quickly ramps-up the action.

Granted, this is just a quick impression after one game, but my experience with DOA 2 was entirely positive.
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Steven Packard
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I think Tim passed out from euphoria overload, not from anything negative....

I'd let him speak for himself, but the last I checked, the poor guy was still out. So I made him comfortable by removing his wallet, and let him rest comfortably.
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WhiteKnight85 wrote:
I think Tim passed out from euphoria overload, not from anything negative....

I'd let him speak for himself, but the last I checked, the poor guy was still out. So I made him comfortable by removing his wallet, and let him rest comfortably.


Oh...a good pass out. Let's let him rest until November.
 
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jim.brooks10 wrote:
General James Gavin, set himself up a few spaces away from the entrance to the Future Labyrinh with a machine gun (unbeknownst to our opponents). My partner used Elliot Ness as a blocker on the entrance to the Future laybrinth. Our opponents decided to dog-pile on Elliot Ness, and General Gavin opened-up with the machine gun (an area-effect weapon) with devestating results. I think Gavin managed to kill 3 out of 4 of our opponents characters while completely missing Elliot Ness.


Thanks for allowing me to relive that painful moment. (I was indeed one of the tommy gun victims.)
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Never Knows Best wrote:
jim.brooks10 wrote:
General James Gavin, set himself up a few spaces away from the entrance to the Future Labyrinh with a machine gun (unbeknownst to our opponents). My partner used Elliot Ness as a blocker on the entrance to the Future laybrinth. Our opponents decided to dog-pile on Elliot Ness, and General Gavin opened-up with the machine gun (an area-effect weapon) with devestating results. I think Gavin managed to kill 3 out of 4 of our opponents characters while completely missing Elliot Ness.


Thanks for allowing me to relive that painful moment. (I was indeed one of the tommy gun victims.)


Sorry about that. You guys were really kicking our butts up to that point.

Did you and your friends enjoy the game?
 
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I hope all the dice rollers ..... give their votes for DICE, I love "duel of ages" as a game ... and this particular game is fun - with DICE.
Surely I'm not alone in my little - labyrinth on this one.
I use black dice for the black team and white dice for the white.
 
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Dennis Gadgaard
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In DoA1 you use dice with the option of using a chance deck instead.
To my knowledge DoA2 will suggest it the other way around, but you can still play it either way, depending on what suits your taste.
A set of black and white 10-sided dice should be possible to find even if the game doesn't supply them
 
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I will certainly try the dice to see if I prefer it to the cards. What concerns me is that it is a d10 system now. With the old 2d6 system, you had a sense of the probability of success for any given roll. With both sides rolling a d10 and adding the relevant stat, it seems even more random. Maybe I'm wrong mathematically. I don't know.
 
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jim.brooks10 wrote:
I will certainly try the dice to see if I prefer it to the cards. What concerns me is that it is a d10 system now. With the old 2d6 system, you had a sense of the probability of success for any given roll. With both sides rolling a d10 and adding the relevant stat, it seems even more random. Maybe I'm wrong mathematically. I don't know.


"both sides rolling a d10 and adding the relevant stat"... we're not talking opposed rolls for outcome?
Afaik, the system is still compare fixed stats to determine outcome to squeak and then draw a card or roll 1 die.
More random? 2d6 has half of the outcomes in the 6-8 range, so using a d10 may show more extreme outcomes (larger dispersion around the mean value). It may feel more random, but that's really a personal thing, I think.
Calculating your odds are perhaps even easier than before since using a 10-sided die leads to much nicer numbers. 4 to squeak? ok, that's a 40% probability.

Using a deck can make resolution faster (essentially like having a reference sheet on each side of a die), but figuring your odds becomes more difficult. First you need to know if all "die-results" are evenly distributed in the deck (are there an equal amount of 1s, 2s, 3s etc. or are there more around a set mean vaule? I'm guessing the first).
Second, you could possibly keep a mental track of the results seen and factor that into your odds (I'm guessing no-one will reshuffle the deck between each draw, since that would invalidate both ease of use as well as evening out the outcomes).

I think resolution with cards are going to be a bit faster than using dice, and I think it's going to be easier to calculate your odds than in DoA1 whether you use cards or dice. Cardcounting/memory increases in value as a skill.

Just my long-winded 2 cents.
 
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I may have misunderstood Brett, but I thought it was opposed rolls.
 
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jim.brooks10 wrote:
Never Knows Best wrote:
jim.brooks10 wrote:
General James Gavin, set himself up a few spaces away from the entrance to the Future Labyrinh with a machine gun (unbeknownst to our opponents). My partner used Elliot Ness as a blocker on the entrance to the Future laybrinth. Our opponents decided to dog-pile on Elliot Ness, and General Gavin opened-up with the machine gun (an area-effect weapon) with devestating results. I think Gavin managed to kill 3 out of 4 of our opponents characters while completely missing Elliot Ness.


Thanks for allowing me to relive that painful moment. (I was indeed one of the tommy gun victims.)


Sorry about that. You guys were really kicking our butts up to that point.

Did you and your friends enjoy the game?


I really enjoyed the game and would play it again and again.

One of my friends liked it but though it might be a tad long.

My other friend did not enjoy the luck aspect of the game and thought it was so-so.
 
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jim.brooks10 wrote:
I may have misunderstood Brett, but I thought it was opposed rolls.


You were there and played the game... I'm just extrapolating from what info leaks through the net
So walk me through the new motions of say Bill Hickock taking a potshot at Titanium Renegade. Do both players draw a card and compare?
 
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Never Knows Best wrote:
My other friend did not enjoy the luck aspect of the game and thought it was so-so.


Did your friend say anything more about how he experienced the luck aspect?

I ask, because with DoA1 I intro'd the game to a few that also had a negative first experience because they thought it was too random, but that changed a bit when I explained that much of the turn to turn tactics are about planning and positioning to improve your odds, and they seemed to appreciate that.

So just interested, since the rules may have changed in ways I don't know of yet.
 
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DenGad wrote:
jim.brooks10 wrote:
I may have misunderstood Brett, but I thought it was opposed rolls.


You were there and played the game... I'm just extrapolating from what info leaks through the net
So walk me through the new motions of say Bill Hickock taking a potshot at Titanium Renegade. Do both players draw a card and compare?


No, when using cards,there is only one card drawn for the hit check and one for the penetration. You compare each character's stats and look up the difference on the card.

Again, I may have misunderstood, but I thought I heard that dice was opposed rolls using stat plus d10.
 
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DenGad wrote:
Never Knows Best wrote:
My other friend did not enjoy the luck aspect of the game and thought it was so-so.


Did your friend say anything more about how he experienced the luck aspect?

I ask, because with DoA1 I intro'd the game to a few that also had a negative first experience because they thought it was too random, but that changed a bit when I explained that much of the turn to turn tactics are about planning and positioning to improve your odds, and they seemed to appreciate that.

So just interested, since the rules may have changed in ways I don't know of yet.


The complaints from my friends are more indicative of what poor gaming buddies I have as opposed to any negative critique against the game (WTB better friends to go to GENCON with) but I will say this:

Every quest or combat has a check to fail, succeed or astonish, and the probability of it is that with a +2 you have 60% chance of succeeding (or something like that) a quest so really you want a higher number.

One problem lies in that there is a card that is a "critical hit" and another card that is a "critical failure," a guarenteed loss or success regardless of the modifier. Depending on when one team gets one and one team gets another, it can make a difference in the game. You might argue that this is as random as dice however there is a bit of a predetermined fate if you will in the fact that there is only 1 (I believe) of each and it's sitting somewhere in your deck like a bomb about to go off (and similarly a set amount of "dice rolls" in the deck as opposed to the random rolls that can be distributed any number of ways).

The second is in combat where 2 cards are pulled. Here we did kind of get hosed in that we always seemed to have the upper hand in combat with higher +'s and you draw to see if you hit and then draw for damage. We would get lots of hits for no damage or miss with +3, +4 etc. while getting hit by the opponents at -2 or worse (I think we got hit with a -5).

The OP already mentioned the most infamous example where, at the end of the game we dogpiled on top of Elliot Ness to get a quick kill in only to find out a nearby character had a Tommy gun. He hit all 4 of us, critically hitting and killing 2, while Elliot, who I believe had the lowest modifier, was missed completely. I call shenanigans!

This shouldn't discourage anyone though. If we were more experienced we would have known LOS goes into the mouth of the cave (the reason we went in there is we thought we were "safe") and we probably would have figured out the guy outside had a ranged weapon. It was also pretty lucky for him to get that item and it's not likely you're always going to get the perfect weapon for a situation (our kinda sucked with exception to Excalaber).

Another is that since there is a finite amount of time and/or rounds, the game is about action point management which we did not do a very good job of. Combat is a way to earn points, but for everything unless you are at least +4 or so above someone (or some quest) know that you are taking a pretty big risk of not only getting counter-hit but wasting your turn on something that does not have a great chance of succeeding.

As for the card system, I love it. That idea of impending doom or a Hail Mary hidden somewhere in the deck - possibly hidden underneath the next card - is amazing and I much prefer it to dice even though most will argue it's the relatively the same thing. The friend in question get's bothered by most games that don't go his way so it's difficult to give any weight to his complaint.

If you want to read my preview of the game, it's on the DOAII page here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/846398/a-cranky-old-man-...
 
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jim.brooks10 wrote:
About the only thing you notice straight-away is the larger character cards. flat platters and keys!



Here, let me fix that for you ;-)
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Never Knows Best wrote:
As for the card system, I love it. That idea of impending doom or a Hail Mary hidden somewhere in the deck - possibly hidden underneath the next card - is amazing and I much prefer it to dice even though most will argue it's the relatively the same thing. The friend in question get's bothered by most games that don't go his way so it's difficult to give any weight to his complaint.


I hate the idea of this. It is not the same as dice. The likelihood of rolling a particular number on a pair of dice does not change because you "used up" some number earlier. It does with cards (unless you refresh the entire card deck every draw, which is a pain).

FFG had this issue with Rune Wars. I want randomness. I don't want to know that my chance of rolling a critical hit is increasing every time I don't draw it, or that I cannot possibly get a critical hit because I've already drawn that card.
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I wish the combat deck was an add-on expansion and the dice were included in the base game. For one thing, it may make the game a little cheaper.

Although, I think the combat cards for Rune Wars are pretty sweet.
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dochogan wrote:
jim.brooks10 wrote:
About the only thing you notice straight-away is the larger character cards. flat platters and keys!



Here, let me fix that for you ;-)


Hell I would buy it for this alone! I could always play the old rules with the new hopefully better components.

Thanks for the preview. The old game was a 10 for me, and there is no "improving" a 10, so I am not that keen on the new rules as yet, but will try it for sure and judge it from there.

If there was one thing that bugged me in the old game, it was poor rolling so I am curious about the new combat (and even though we have dice cards I never used them but considered it many a time)
 
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jayjonbeach wrote:
dochogan wrote:
jim.brooks10 wrote:
About the only thing you notice straight-away is the larger character cards. flat platters and keys!



Here, let me fix that for you ;-)


Hell I would buy it for this alone! I could always play the old rules with the new hopefully better components.

Thanks for the preview. The old game was a 10 for me, and there is no "improving" a 10, so I am not that keen on the new rules as yet, but will try it for sure and judge it from there.

If there was one thing that bugged me in the old game, it was poor rolling so I am curious about the new combat (and even though we have dice cards I never used them but considered it many a time)


Some people will percieve their card draws to be as abysmally unlucky as their old dice throws were You tend to remember your rotten luck on the pivotal points in your games, and not all the less important stuff. I expect the cards will make the process more streamlined, that's all; luck never appear fair even when it is
 
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